Kathy Gallagher knows firsthand the devastation and pain a husband's betrayal causes. But in this interview she looks at the blessings that come from trials and helps answer the question everyone who has suffered is tempted to ask: Why did God let this happen to me?

Mike: Kathy, the letter we want to deal with today is from Shirley, and Shirley is expressing something that many of us have asked, and it really can be boiled down to this: "why has God allowed this to happen to me?" Shirley is feeling like she's been abandoned by God. How would you respond to her?

Kathy: I like to share a little of my own testimony answer that question, Mike, because every woman I've ever dealt with has asked the same question: "why did God let this happen to me?" All women marry men that we love, and we marry those men believing that they're going to be our life partner, that we're going to have this wonderful loving relationship; we're going to have children... You know, I mean, it's not a fairy tale or a fantasy, it's real. You expect all that to happen, so when you get into the process of marriage and you begin to find out that there's unfaithfulness, that completely shatters all of a woman's dreams. "Lord, you knew," I can't tell you how many times I've heard that, "God you knew what he was doing when I married him, why did you allow this to happen?" And I said that many times myself; I just couldn't make sense of why God allowed me to marry Steve Gallagher. I was on fire for Christ I mean, I was a soul winner; it was exciting, it was dynamic; I was in love with Jesus Christ, He was in love with me. But within days finding out that Steve was in sexual sin—horrible stuff.

Mike: It's the age-old question: "why does God allow bad things to happen to good people?"

Kathy: At least in my life, Mike, all I can say, and I've counseled this for many years; because you can't make sense of this in the natural and it doesn't make any sense. But in the spiritual it makes a lot of sense because God uses suffering primarily to carve out of us habits and attitudes and sin that nothing else can get at. Finding out my husband was in sexual sin was the worst thing that could have happened to me, but it brought out things in me that I did not know were in there. Of course, I would have been happy to spend the rest of my life not even dealing with that stuff; I would have been happy to just have a mediocre Christianity and a mediocre marriage. That would have been fine for me, but God wasn't satisfied with that. I've been married 29 years, and I look back on those years and what I see is a long history of God's faithfulness, maybe not Steve's faithfulness, but I saw God's faithfulness and what I would say to Shirley and a lot of other women who have found themselves in that same predicament: feeling like "God, why did you let this happen to me?" God's letting it happen because he's refining, and, ladies, we need it just as much as the men do, and I think that we struggle a lot with that as women; we feel like victims when we found out that our husbands have been unfaithful. And we are, to a certain degree, we are victims of someone else's awful behavior. And yet, you can either choose to let God use it in your life and fashion you and mold you or you can become bitter, hard-hearted, divorce this jerk and move on, but you're going to have to deal with stuff. If you really belong to the Lord something is going to have to go in and deal with these issues.

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Mike: How do you ultimately deal, Kathy, with that very real feeling that you've been abandoned by God? It is a real feeling that you have.

Kathy: Yeah, it's very real but you know, Mike, all I can say, if you have truly been converted; you know in your heart of hearts that God is good, no matter what; you know that and it's real. This nation has created a nation of people who are very spoiled, and we have a very high expectation in marriage. So when something interferes with that, we immediately turn to God and start questioning God. The Lord is allowing things to happen in our lives because he's trying to get at things in us that nothing else will get to, and that's why I feel like sexual sin, as bad and awful as it is, and, you know, I get upset when I hear the stories of what men do to their families; it breaks my heart—but you're in that situation and you have to say in your heart "God you are for me, you are with me, and you're going to do something; you're going to bring about good through this."

Mike: One of the things that you said, you described the attributes, or the character, of God. How often do you think it's the problem that some of these women simply do not know what the character of God is and maybe they need to spend more time in the Word of God getting to know him so that they do know, not only what his promises are, but who he is.

Kathy: Right; and that was my problem in the beginning because I was still very young when all this broke, and I was just a new Christian, and I didn't know the Lord at all. Part of what happened for me when I found out about Steve's sin after I realized how much I needed God, I ran to His word to find answers for my marital problems but what I found was a God of mercy and compassion that's what I ran into, and I found a side to God that, again, I would never have known the Lord the way I know him, if I hadn't gone through what I've been through.

Mike: Amen. Kathy, I hope that'll be an encouragement and hopefully some direction to women who may feel abandoned by God.

Kathy: Thanks so much thanks Mike.

Lyndell Holtz grew up surrounded by godly examples. She had a powerful experience with the Lord as a young girl and developed strong convictions about what was right and what was wrong. In college she married a man named David and they entered into a life of full-time ministry. She thought this was the blueprint for happiness. But fast forward 20 years later and she would be depressed and doubting, still aching for happiness. It was these things that allowed the enemy to lead her to a place she swore she would never go – an adulterous relationship. But you’ll also hear how God took what the devil meant for evil and turned it for great good – in her own life, and in the lives of others.

You can purchase a copy of Lyndell’s book by visiting amazon.com. Just look for Confessions of an Adulterous Christian Woman. Purity for Life is a production of Pure Life Ministries. If you are a woman who is struggling with sexual sin in any form, we would encourage you to check out our Overcomers-At-Home Program where you can receive counseling to help you break free from the bonds of sexual addiction. Just go to purelifeministries.org to find out more information. You’ll also find all our teaching materials there, including Create in Me a Pure Heart by Kathy Gallagher.

Even the spirit of this world can sense the destructive path mankind is on and that it cannot continue this way forever, that there must come an end to the horrors we see growing every day. Yet, it is deluded as to the true nature of the problem, that 6000 years ago we declared war against a Holy God. The world is trying to evade the inevitable end to this battle by seeking solutions to save itself apart from the gospel God has laid before us. But the end will come for the Children of Adam, and when it does, it will catch many by surprise. Then, we will all be brought before the judgment seat of God and the question presented to us shall be: Are we standing in The Truth? This is the final episode of our special series, World  of Lies, based on the latest book by Steve Gallagher:

Walking in Truth in a World of Lies. We would encourage you to get a copy and immerse yourself in its biblically based truth. Just visit aworldoflies.org to find out more information. Purity for Life is a production of Pure Life Ministries. You can find all of our teaching materials, by visiting purelifeministries.org. You can also find out about our residential and phone-counseling programs if you or someone you care about is trapped in the deception of sexual sin.

In a recent interview with Glenn and Jessie Meldrum, they spoke on the sad decline of the church in America. Part of that interview touched on the fact that prayer and Bible study are vital elements of a true and strong Christian life. If you're a new Christian, this will help you to see how you can do this and just why it is so important.

Nate: I've been studying the Bible for 12 years, and I know that probably the 1st 5 years as a new believer were very painful—just difficult—because it showed me how little I really knew. I mean there's this... once you actually start to study the Word of God or start to really have a life of prayer, you realize how little you know; there's just this vast world that's opening up before you… For a new believer who wants to make a commitment to spending quality time studying the Bible and being in prayer, what encouragement would you give to them?

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Glenn: Well I guess one of the things I would say is you're never going to know the joy of fellowship with God til you begin to put yourself in place for that. I've given the illustration before: it's like I have a big piece of chocolate cake and you've never even eaten chocolate in your life, much less chocolate cake. How do you describe chocolate cake to somebody who doesn't know what it is? It's like trying to explain to a blind man that has been blind his whole life what blue is, you know, this color blue. You don't have a point of reference. You really don't know until you begin to taste and see that God is good—until you begin to understand. So when a person comes to salvation they are having some kind of encounter with God (or they're not coming to salvation; if there's not an encounter with God then there's no salvation. If there isn't some form of spiritual revolution that's happening in their life that's changing them then, you know, they're just having sentimental ideas.) But when they begin to have an encounter with God, there should be enough understanding that should cause them to begin to press in, to go in, to start learning the place of prayer and the only way you're going to learn how to pray is to pray I mean you got to do it.

Now there are good books out there: E.M. Bounds, Andrew Murray, other ones that are out there that are really good books on prayer; but you're not going to know prayer from reading a book. You're gonna know prayer from going to the place of prayer and learning how to communicate with God. And a part of prayer that I think is so important is a place of learning how to enjoy God; just learning how to be in a spot where you just love being with him, and that's what praise is all about. So when you look at the Lord's Prayer, or the "Our Father," however people want to call it, you know, it begins with praise, ends with praise and then in between is our petitions. I don't believe we're supposed pray the Lord's Prayer verbatim; it's an outline of what prayer should consist of, but it's that place of enjoying God, the place of praise where we start knowing that intimate fellowship and it's not going to be so much in the place of making our petitions known. Sometimes we commune in the place of intercession where we’re praying for others or an individual and you are really burdened over that person and you are experiencing God in the midst of that intercession, but usually it's in the place of worship and prayer that you really do it. So I would really recommend that a new believer, or a believer that has never come to the place of maturity in their life that they begin just to put themselves at the feet of Jesus, and if you try and make it by time and chance—whenever it happens—it's not going to happen. It has to be this purposeful discipline that comes in your life where you are saying, "I've got to take time with Jesus; he is worth my investment."

That's where so much of the problem is—what I had referred to earlier in the Church of Ephesus forsaking their first love—you know we ultimately forsake the first love because we don't spend time with Jesus anymore. We start moving away and we don't see him as infinitely valuable, we just don't think it's that important so we neglect prayer, but in the neglect of prayer, or never learning the place of prayer and worship, what happens is we move further and further away from him. Then we just think it to be a dead religion, or just ritual, or whatever, because there's no life in it, and so, it really has to be this place of hungering for him and then putting ourselves in the place of prayer. And second would be that place of the study of the Word. There, again, you can't make it time and chance—you have to do it, and if you don't make it the purposeful thing to learn the word of God, then you're not going to understand what's there. And somebody can go and start reading the Bible right from the beginning through the end and that's fine, but they're going to come the place where they just say I have no idea what's being taught and, well, you just keep going because a little bit later you'll find something that does make sense and as you mature you come and begin to understand a little bit more and you'll understand why some things were there and there may be points in your life where you just say I have no idea why that's in the Bible, period. So you go on and you understand what you can and that's why, especially for new believers, I recommend staying in the New Testament, and especially in the Gospels to get to know Jesus. The Word of God needs to become something that's real and vibrant. When we understand Jesus, we will begin to understand the Old Testament that's pointing to Him.‍

Jessie: I would just add that there's things we have to do that seem like a sacrifice but Jesus never made it easy. He's made statements like "deny yourself, take up the cross, fall into the ground and die, lose your life." So when he's telling us that we have to have a life in him, we have to know him through prayer and the word, getting under good teaching, it doesn't maybe feel good; it doesn’t. It really feels like, "you know this isn't going to be fun" or "I'd rather look at screens instead of this," especially like this younger generation. I mean I felt it: when I got saved I was glued to television and they were always going. We had at least 3 televisions going on in my home all the time, constantly, so I know, a little bit anyway, what that feels like when you get saved, and you know something has to happen—you need to pull away from this... So I kept trying to ease away from the television and spend time with God, but it didn't work and then, I think I was saved like 9 months, and I heard a message; somebody preached on prayer and said "can you not give Jesus one hour of your life each day?" and it just hit me like, "doesn't, yeah, doesn't he deserve that?" So from that day it was "Ok, I'm just going to give him..." and it was hard at first, but God started meeting with me and then eventually the hour... it's not enough time. I need more time with him and as I just cut off T.V... I couldn’t limit myself, so I just cut it off, and in time it's like wow I don't even miss it; I don't even know what's on television. For Glenn and I it's been years since we've watched television, and we haven't missed anything, we're not like sitting around in the evenings going "I wonder what people are watching," it's just not even part of life. So there's a point where it feels like sacrifice at first, it feels like denying yourself; but just press through. You do this, you seek Him; He does reward those who diligently seek Him, and it becomes just normal. You have to have it, you can't get through a day without prayer.

There is a spiritual war being waged against your soul. Whether you are aware of it or not, the enemy has many weapons and strategies aimed at breaking through the walls of our heart and bringing in the vilest pollutions that will destroy us from within. He is ruthless and will assail us with a barrage of lies through culture and media until we cannot resist his temptations. But something else puts our souls in eternal danger. There is a traitor in our very midst: our own flesh. Our hearts are desperately wicked, and every day, as we seek to stand against the tides of deception raging against us, we must also restrain this traitor from his constant attempts to open the gate and surrender to our enemy. We must be willing to root out the traitor and put him to death or risk our hearts being overthrown.

In this interview from our archives,  Mike Johnston, Bill Lucas, and Kathy Gallagher show that the healing, restoration, and forgiveness we long for in our lives can only come to us as we see our deep need for God to renew our hearts. (From #385 - The Right Way to Give Up)

Mike: We want to talk today about biblical forgiveness. It is at the core of our faith, and the core of our relationship with the Lord. Bill I want to start with you. One of the things that I know we see in the men coming to us for counseling is that an understanding of our forgiveness requires that we have sight of our need. Talk to us a little bit about that.

Bill: Well, in the area of sexual sin, guys come to us believing they only have just one little problem. They believe that they're going to come in and deal with this problem and get on with life. It's the reality of my life that God opened my eyes to the wickedness of my heart and how it had completely affected my whole life: my living, how I acted, what I did. So, as we expose that to the men, they they realize that their one little problem of sexual sin is actually not their primary need. The greater need is that they have a heart problem which contains every aspect of their life. You can't put one little problem in a system and it not affect the whole system.

Mike: Another way to look at it is that the outward sins that we see are really a manifestation of the heart issues. They're really growing out of the deeper heart issues.

Kathy: I was thinking about how if you don't understand the nature of sin, then it's hard to grasp the nature of your need. I remember when I got saved, all I knew was that there was something so desperately wrong with everything about me and that if I died, I would be separated from God. Somehow I just knew that inside. My need was enormous. Our heart is corrupt through and through, and that's what God is trying to deal with. It's not the symptoms He wants to deal with.

Mike: Let's take it down one more level. You may not have ever dealt with sexual sin. In fact you may see yourself as a pretty good person. We can all compare ourselves to other people. We can always find other people that make us look pretty good on the outside. But, when we're dealing with issues of faith, the truth is in the Word of God and the Word of God says that there is no good thing in me. I can be a church-goer all my life and I can have a gold star on my church attendance. I can be outwardly kind to other people. I can be a very humble person in my personality, but the Bible says it doesn't matter. There's no good thing in us because we've all been terribly corrupted by sin. Whether it's outwardly communicated to others or whether is just secretly in the heart, we are all desperately without hope when it comes to our sin.

Kathy: The corruption that came through the fall belongs to all of mankind. No one has been excluded from it. We are all corrupt inwardly. With forgiveness, God doesn't forgive just specific sins and that's not what our need is. We don't need God to forgive us specifically of certain sins. We need the whole of God's love and forgiveness to come over who we are in our natures. Our nature is corrupt and that's what the issue is.

Bill: I think one of the biggest enemies towards seeing need is being naturally good-natured. The person who is naturally good will struggle tremendously seeing a spiritual need. A lot of people rate themselves by all the good they do.

Kathy: The rich young ruler who was a perfect example of that. He came to Jesus saying, "I've kept all of the commandments, all of my life. What do I need to do to inherit eternal life?" The whole argument was ridiculous to the Lord. Of course, He didn't come across that way, but there's none good.

Mike: Going along with that story. For the sake of argument, Jesus was assuming that what the young man had said was true and with the right motive. You know, Jesus kind of gave the man the benefit of the doubt and said, "Okay. Now go and sell everything you have and give it to the poor." Jesus knew there was a heart issue in this man. He loved his money. It was his security and that man went away sad, because there was a heart issue. And that's really our point today. All of us have heart issues, no matter how outwardly good we may appear to be. Bill, share a little bit with us, because I know this is the first step for a man coming to our program, and for really anyone. Once they've gotten a sight of how desperately needy they are, what happens in their relationship with the Lord and what the Lord is offering them?

Bill: As they see their need, the next step is that gratitude should grow in their lives of what Christ has done. Only Jesus can bring that forgiveness and fulfill our need. As we recognize that, gratitude starts to well up and also hope. It's amazing that when someone's eyes are opened to the greatness of God and what He has done, how He has paid a great price, hope grows that God can really restore you.

Kathy: Humility as well is what I think of. When you get a sight of who you are and what God has done, all you can do is fall down and worship. When you really get a sight of what you are and what you've done and what you deserve, but see how Jesus took the wrath of God for you, it's like wow!

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Mike: The forgiveness of God is so tremendous. In fact, when you really get a sight of it, it's almost unbelievable. I don't know how to say it in the right way, I just have trouble getting my arms around the fact that God has really forgiven me!

Kathy: What's even more amazing, words don't do it justice, but He lives in me. He is ever-present and He is now here and near.

Mike: And he couldn't unless he had forgiven us.

Bill: I tell the guys what it says in the Bible, if the Spirit of God is in you, then you have been given a Spirit of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. It's just so tremendous to know that when the truth starts becoming real about our relationship with this awesome God, this mighty God, who has forgiven us, it's humbling. You see how much you lack and how much he has.

Mike: That's a wonderful way to put it. I'm an empty well and He is an overflowing fountain of whatever I need. He's overflowing with it. Well, let's talk about a third thing as we wrap up today. As an individual sees his need and as he gets a sight of God's forgiveness, how does that affect his relationship with other people?

Bill: At first in our Residential Program, we tell the men who come to us what it's like to live around people with a mind focused on giving to others. As you begin to see what God has done for you, what else can you do than to express that towards others? There are many Scriptures to back that up, but I think of Romans 2:1 that gives the impression, if you become a judge, what you're doing is you're looking in a mirror and you're just seeing another person. I tell the guys this: when you get a sight of what you're like and who Christ is, you have compassion for others and allow them room and you learn to forgive others.

Mike: I put it this way, it's very difficult to look down on other people when you're down where you need to be. Because all you can do is look up.

Bill: And God is big, when you're at your right spot, you see God is so much bigger, and it's so real that when we're in our right place, we can really look to God and just trust Him. We can be compassionate towards others. We can forgive others just like the Bible says, and God does truly provide our every need. He is there. He will guide our steps. He does what His Word says.

KG: Only the power of God can give the human heart the ability to say, "I forgive you." But he will give it to you.

We’ve come to a critical point in our series, World of Lies. So far, we’ve discussed how deception works and why it’s so dangerous to the Christian. We’ve looked at how our culture is constantly feeding us ungodly messages and seen that even the church is filled with proponents of these same lies. Now we turn and begin examining how to really Walk in Truth in a World of Lies. Today we look at the first part of that process. It begins with a choice that every one of us must make at some point in our lives. This choice is much like the one God asked Abraham to make. He had to choose to forsake his life in a pagan nation, leave everything he had ever known, and to go to a land God would show him. God is asking each one of us to make that same choice, trusting Him, like Abraham, to bring us to a better land. So, will you heed the call, and once and for all Forsake the Land of Deception?

There is a spiritual war being waged against your soul. Whether you are aware of it or not, the enemy has many weapons and strategies aimed at breaking through the walls of our heart and bringing in the vilest pollutions that will destroy us from within. He is ruthless and will assail us with a barrage of lies through culture and media until we cannot resist his temptations. But something else puts our souls in eternal danger. There is a traitor in our very midst: our own flesh. Our hearts are desperately wicked, and every day, as we seek to stand against the tides of deception raging against us, we must also restrain this traitor from his constant attempts to open the gate and surrender to our enemy. We must be willing to root out the traitor and put him to death or risk our hearts being overthrown.

Jesus said that the devil has been a, “murderer from the beginning and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.” When you consider that the devil once shared in the riches of God’s goodness and love, this statement reveals the depths to which he fell. He knew first-hand the spiritual riches and beauty that even the sincerest believers have only tasted. Yet, he abandoned the truth and was cast down from heaven. Since that rebellion, Satan has spent 6,000 years reveling in lies. Everywhere he goes, he brings with him a powerful spiritual atmosphere of deception. And in order to disentangle ourselves from this atmosphere, we must see why deception is the prevailing characteristic of our day. Today we expose the strategies and character of the father of lies.

In part 2 of our interview with Dustin Renz we discuss the life of hypocrisy he fell into for 10 long years after his conversion; he lived a double life as a good Christian on the outside and an addict in secret. He discusses the spiritual consequences of this period of his life and what it took for him to gain true freedom.

When a person lives in deception, they do it because they believe that it's going to benefit them. “If I tell the truth,” they say, “it's going to cost me.” In their mind the cost of the truth will be their comfort or their possessions or their family or their reputation. But what that person cannot see is that the cost of truth is far less than the cost of deception because, even though the truth might cost some temporal things, the cost of deception is their character. In a previous interview with Dustin Renz, we talked about the Satanic darkness that he allowed into his heart before he came to know Jesus. And about the incredible freedom that came when he started walking in the light. But even after Dustin came to know Christ, there was a time when he allowed deception to rule in his heart and it cost him dearly.

Dustin you wrote a book called “Pile of Masks: Exposing Christian Hypocrisy” to help professing Christians walk in the truth. I want to read a quote from it to give listeners a more complete picture of the life that you lived for a number of years. You said “most of my credentials [as far as writing the book] came from time living in the wilderness. The seasons I spent in Teen Challenge and Pure Life Ministries serve as bookends for nearly 10 years of running from God much like the biblical prophet Jonah. However, my running was done internally and the fish that swallowed me was called hypocrisy. But, like Jonah, I too realized the desperate situation I was in and cried out to God for mercy.” So to start today, can you talk to us about that 10 year period where you left to the light of truth and began walking in hypocrisy?

So it really started when I graduated Teen Challenge and I got a little bit more freedom (pornography had been a part of my life since I was young). In the beginning I was a sincere believer and I kind of had opened up this door. I tried to get a little bit of help, but I didn't really allow people to help me very much and so I kind of had this thing on the side. I want to Bible College and it became: on the weekends I go work at Teen Challenge and I'd look at pornography and then I'd go back to Bible school. And what took place over a period of time… I could see pivotal points where the double life kind of grew. It all revolved around secrecy and I began to lie. I lied to my fiance who became my wife. I lied to a counselor at school. I had to lie to get my credentials to preach. It was not a one day decision of “I'm just going to walk away from God internally and pretend to be a Christian.” It wasn't like that; it was these these small decisions, one at a time. Eventually, there was this public Dustin that everyone respected—I was in ministry; I became a missionary. Everyone thought “this is who Dustin really is.” Then there was this private Dustin that had gotten tangled back into drugs and alcohol and pornography and all that kind of darkness that God had rescued me out I began to gravitate toward, only in secret. It was almost like there was this public me and then there was the me that was hidden that actually looked a lot like I did before I got saved and it was a growing darkness one decision at a time.

One of the things that stands out in your book is that during this whole process, as you were making that one decision at a time that's creating this double life, was that the Lord was trying to restrain you. He was trying to keep you from that and keep you close to him. You were really honest about it, you said that that restraining love just made you angry, because it felt like God was trying to keep you—again that lie was resurfacing—God's trying to keep you from something that you deserved. How did your internal world change as you believed those lies?

What took place over a period of time—again this was the gradual change—there was a time where I really wanted to please God and got into the ministry to serve him and that was very much a real passion for me and fueled what I did. Over time it became more and more about me, especially as I began to live for myself, even though it was in secret. So the ministry became, in my heart, an opportunity for me to get famous or become something. So what took place is, over that time, I saw the Lord... He became a stumbling block to me pursuing what I want and looking back I can see it as mercy. He was trying to stop me from destroying myself; He knew that if I really pursued what was in my heart it would end up being the end of me. So He was actually trying to restrain me, but what happened inside was that I really got bitter to the place where eventually I really felt like I didn't t even want to be a Christian anymore. I felt trapped in a Christian life: I had married a Christian woman, I'd give myself to the ministry; I didn't have any kind of other career options or plans and so I kind of felt like I had set myself up to be stuck in this world with this God that I didn't trust anymore and I thought that he was really you know against me. So I just became very bitter, just this miserable bitter person.

In our “World of Lies” series we've spent a lot of time focusing on how dangerous it is to harbor any kind of deceit in our hearts. And it's really easy to do that because we've got the cultures lies we've got the lies even in the evangelical church and then we've got the deceitful propensity of our own hearts. When you've got all that arrayed against you it might be easy to say “man it's as impossible, I could never walk in in the light of truth,” but you're a testimony that it is possible because you were in full-fledged deception and you did make a massive turn and begin to walk in the light. So what was that real turning point for you?

It began with my confession. I was on the mission field and I confessed everything to my wife and that set a series of events that took place: getting taken off the mission field and resigning and all these things that took place that, basically, were consequences of that. What I found is when I got back to the United States, for the first time, I didn't have a mask to hide behind. People knew because we came back early. I had to confess to family and friends; I mean it was fairly public. So instead of immediately repenting I just got even more bitter. I really wanted to run from God; I was really just in a place of I just want to give myself over to my sin that I want to deal with the consequences. 8 months of being in that dark place and I had the opportunity to come to Pure Life Ministries. I came as a last resort; I really didn't come with hope that things were going to get different. I thought for sure these people aren't able teach me anything. I feel like I know it all anyhow and showed up here at the program. The Lord just brought me through a several-month process of repentance; breaking down the self life, revealing my heart to me, showing me what I was really like and and it was this cooperation of him showing me and me admitting it and confessing it and crying out for help. It was through that process the Lord really brought me to a breaking point where I just really realized he was my only option if I was going to ever be free. It was the same place that I found back when I was in Teen Challenge. The same God who set me free once could do it again and if I wanted it, I could cry out to him, and he was making that available. So through a series of events that's kind of what happened: I'd ended up in the chapel for a while, for about a week, just crying out to God: “Lord I still want to have this relationship; if this is really available to someone like me who's done all these things; been in so much deception and really brought shame to the name of Jesus by my lifestyle... but if you still want me... I want what you have to offer me.” It was at that point in time he began this other process of rebuilding me and restoring me and bringing that restoration into my life that now, 10 years later, has brought me on a completely different path than what I was on before.

Did you ever think during that really painful moment, this crisis moment, like “what's happening to me is bad this can't go anywhere good.”?

I feel like the Lord, and He does this sometimes, He brings it just like where you feel like you can't bear it anymore and kind of dangles you there for a minute just like to let you feel that pain and I just remember shortly before the breakthrough came the feeling like “OK God I've done everything I know to do I've confessed, I've cried out to you, I see everything that you're saying, I agree with you and I just don't know what else to do.” I really felt like... I thought I was going to get crushed by the weight and it was at that point where I felt like “I cannot take this anymore,” when he began to reveal himself in a different way and that really began that process.

I think that would give people a lot of hope who might be nearing that breaking point: just keep letting the Lord do that; keep letting him take you there. As we start to close, I want to step away from your personal testimony and get your perspective as a pastor on something. We both know from our own experience and experience ministering to people that the church today is filled with all kinds of spiritual illnesses that have their root in hypocrisy. And your ministry is calling the bride of Christ to come up to your real calling your real testimony. What do you think is the biggest thing that is hindering people from coming out of hypocrisy?

I think one of the biggest issues in the western church especially is we've just learned to play church games. We figured out how to do Christianity and make it look authentic without actually it impacting our hearts, which is why Pure Life and my ministry and others like ours, we're calling people, constantly, to examine their hearts because that's where... Christianity has always been about the heart and I feel like in our culture somehow we've become religious in our Christianity where we've put up an image that if you go to church if you talk like a Christian, you listen to Christian music, you do certain Christian things—that's what Christianity is. Somebody can do that and live for their self at the same time. The reason people have such a hard time coming out of that is because there's such a lack of transparency in the church where we don't feel like we can have real, honest conversations about what's really going on because there's fear that is involved and it seems very widespread. I don't think people even see another option so you kinda end up just kind of fading in with the ranks and not ever allowing people into that deep place that says “here's who I really am.”

As you're talking about coming out of hypocrisy you said it yourself that what had to happen was that there had to be a confrontation with the truth, and one of the things that Pastor Steve has been lamenting about during this entire series is that, largely, in the church pastors aren't giving people the truth they're giving people what they want something that caters to their own thoughts and feelings. So what's your take on that. If people aren't even getting the truth, how are they going to come out of hypocrisy?

You know I try not to discount the fact that God has a way of doing things despite the culture. And I do have hope that God is raising up voices. Obviously if I didn't think it was possible then my ministry would be kind of irrelevant because it would be a lost cause, but I do think that God's raising up repentance preachers and a return to holiness. Whether or not that's a widespread thing—that doesn't seem very likely with the current church culture—but I do think that... Jesus said “My sheep hear My voice they'll know my voice,” and so I think even despite a worldly church culture... of course there's a lot of people in the masses that have itching ears... there are some that are hungry. The Lord's always got a remnant; I've seen it as I've gone to minister in churches and been part of the church world, there are some that are the real deal who really want the Lord and they see that they're being sold short and so the Lord has a way of getting a hold of those ones. I would pray and and love to continue to pray, and I will, that the whole church would wake up, but based on the current culture and what I see in the scriptures that doesn't seem like a very likely scenario, but despite all of that I do believe the Lord's working and will continue to work. I think what happened to me of course could happen to someone else. It happens at Pure Life on a regular basis but it also happens in churches when people hear the truth, it happens in devotional times and quiet times when people are reading the scriptures for themselves. So I think the Lord's got a way of getting a hold of his people.

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One last question before we stop: that point where you said everything began to change was the point where you told someone everything. For the person who is knowing right now; they're listening and they're knowing “I'm that one who has to tell someone everything,” but the prospect of what it's going to cost them is absolutely terrifying. Just speak to that person.

First off I would say allowing it all to come out and exposing that was not an immediate fix as I thought—in some ways it was the beginning of the nightmare because that's when I had to walk through a lot of the consequences so... I had this picture of this beautiful moment where it came out and then all the consequences are wiped away. I had a misconception about it. However, looking back over my life, for years, I had wanted to confess what I was doing. For years I thought if I could stop lying about this, if I could get out of the darkness, I can at least begin the process of getting free. I literally wasted year after year after year after year after year hoping to get it right between me and God. That was the lie that was always there: I can do this; God you need to help me and one day I'll get free and no one will ever have to know.” It's a lie from the devil; I mean we're talking about the deceptions of the enemy; the Devil's right there. My biggest cheerleader in my hypocrisy was the devil whispering in my ear: you don't have to tell anybody. I think that's the biggest lie we have to overcome is, I look back and I don't think it was even possible that I could ever have gotten true repentance without first talking. The option of “I'm going to get this right eventually in secret,” was never a real option it was the enemy just putting that out front of me and so it always seemed like, “next times the last time and I'm going to get free,” and I'd have like a couple of weeks where I wouldn't be in some sin and I be like, “OK I'm free, but then I'd fall back, but it was always an illusion I was chasing. The reality was exposure is an absolute necessity. I tell married men all the time, if you're married and you have a spouse you need to confess whatever's going on; you need to let your wife know, but beyond that a spiritual leader you know find somebody; not just a buddy you can chat with who's not going to bring you to a place of accountability, but you need to find somebody that you can be real with and then allow the process of consequences and conversations; all those things you have to walk through, walk through it one step at a time realizing there is freedom coming, but you're going to have to walk through some pain along the way. But the longer you put off that decision, the deeper you get into it anyways and so what you could expose today and get free, if you wait two years, imagine how much more deeper the darkness because the sin doesn't shrink it gets bigger in darkness. The Bible says today is the day of salvation; it is a great day to expose sin and get it out in the light; yes you should have done it 10 years ago. You didn't but now's your opportunity and I would just encourage somebody: do it now, make that phone call, have that conversation while you feel the Lord convicting you, because if you wait you'll convince yourself enough to do it.

We’ve come to a critical point in our series, World of Lies. So far,  we’ve discussed how deception works and why it’s so dangerous to the Christian. We’ve looked at how our culture is constantly feeding us  ungodly messages and seen that even the church is filled with proponents of these same lies. Now we turn and begin examining how to really Walk  in Truth in a World of Lies. Today we look at the first part of that process. It begins with a choice that every one of us must make at some  point in our lives. This choice is much like the one God asked Abraham  to make. He had to choose to forsake his life in a pagan nation, leave  everything he had ever known, and to go to a land God would show him.  God is asking each one of us to make that same choice, trusting Him,  like Abraham, to bring us to a better land. So, will you heed the call,  and once and for all Forsake the Land of Deception?

Our enemy is very real. We are the targets of his schemes, and he will be satisfied with nothing less than the destruction of our lives and our souls. Dustin Renz knows these schemes very well. He came to Pure life about a decade ago, and his story shows very dramatically how Satan is able to draw us into his world and corrupt our souls with his lies. Dustin’s experience may be more extreme than yours, but listen closely, because his story will help bring the enemy’s schemes in your life into sharp focus. (From #403 -   World of Lies: The Father of Lies)

Dustin, several chapters in "Walking in Truth in a World of Lies" are devoted to explaining why Satan's lies are so powerful, and we know he is a master deceiver, but the reason that they are so powerful—that they have such a hold on us—is because our own sinful hearts want that deception. And we can hear those things in a theoretical sense, but miss how it connects to our own lives, how our own hearts are being pulled by the lies of the enemy. So I wanted to bring you in because, for many years, you bought into the devil's lies, and that was taking you somewhere very real in your internal world. I was hoping that you could give people a picture about what it was like for you in your life when you were walking down that path.

Sure, when I was young we did ouija boards and listened to satanic music. When I was at a friend's house, I got exposed to all these dark things. At that time, when I was really young, I kind of rejected it. I experienced it; but I didn't really long for it. It wasn't until I went through some things in my life: my parents divorce and some other things, when I found myself beginning to latch on to that. For me it was always music that was the driving force behind it. I listened to all kinds of satanic and goth rock bands, and what it did was open me up to a satanic deception and that really became a driving force of my life. As a teenager—in my formative years not, really understanding exactly what I was getting into—I just remember I was so filled with rage and hatred. I just hated myself and who I'd become and I hated people around me. I had a very strong desire to get revenge on people; I wanted to hurt people, I wanted to hurt myself; I had a history of suicide attempts. Outwardly that played out in cross-dressing and wearing all black; I did all that kind of stuff. I was very depressed, but even after I got out of that lifestyle and started dabbling with drugs and partying, I had the same internal anger and frustration and all that kind of came with me at all times. When I look back—I wouldn't have been able to verbalize this back then—I see… you know the Bible talks about how Satan disguises himself as an angel of light, and I realized I never had... I always had an awareness that the God of the Bible was really God and that there was a real devil but somehow, in all that I went through, the devil had almost convinced me that he was like a friend to me, that he would give me what I wanted—my heart's desires—and that God wouldn't be able to supply those things. So in all of that it was very confusing and deceiving, but looking back I felt like that's kind of like at the root of it: I really believed that God wasn't good and wasn't going to provide for me what I needed.

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I'm glad you shared that about that lie that you were believing because that's what I wanted to talk about next. When Pastor Steve and I talked in a previous episode, he said that people are changed by deception over a period of time. So that they start out here and they end here... Often the way it works is that a lie presents itself and a person follows that—buys into that lie—and then there are other deceptions that begin to present themselves and the longer you go down that path of following these lies, you are changing internally and your externals are changing and we can end up in places we never imagined we would back at the beginning. You know even if people can't relate to the specifics—cross-dressing, drugs, suicide—that lie that you were believing, that the devil has something to offer and God is withholding something, that is common to man. So talk more about that, maybe, as you look back. How did that play out in your life?

When you look at the Garden of Eden that's really the first lie that Satan told Eve. The first thing: God's holding out on you, there's something he doesn't want you to have. So I think all these years later it still works, and that was the basis of the belief because I grew up in church I had some kind of understanding, but it was as if there was always some kind of offer on the table. It kind of changed at different times, but it was always a promise of satisfaction. At times, “if you follow this path there's going to be pleasure,” and all these things; chasing an experience that I could never really achieve but there is that pursuit. I remember at times it was really about power. Because I had been picked on and because I've been bullied and abused, I had this inward thing that one day I was going to get back against everybody. "One day I'm going to get my revenge on everyone." I even remember—it sounds crazy now—but like when I was a freshman in high school, I was in the middle of this darkness. I had a friend and I told her, “listen I need to tell you a secret,” and we talked and I said, “I think I'm some kind of God.” I said, “I've got this power; there's something in me that one day is going to be shown to the world.” I couldn't even explain what that was, but I had this feeling, and I look back and I know it's just a demonic lie; the devil promises that to people. I was pursuing that, there was something in me that wanted power. Eventually when I began doing music and got into hip hop music, then it was just a desire for fame. It was almost like the devil was saying “if you do this for me, I will elevate you and you will become,” you know “like such and such celebrity." So it was always a pursuit of a self, it was something that I could get... like “God can't provide these things for you because if you do them for him it's going to be for His glory, so if you really want the glory and you really want the power you're going to have to do it for me,” is kind of like the lie that was being purported. So all these years I was chasing something and the devil was almost saying like “just keep on coming a little bit deeper, keep coming a little more into the darkness” and, “it's right here.” But, of course, it was just an illusion, and I could never actually grasp what he was promising.

In that process along with that pursuit came the depression, the rage, the dissatisfaction, but you never connected that with the process of following Satan.

Well if you had asked 14, 15, 16-year-old Dustin, "are you following the devil?" I would not have worded it that way. I knew that I had allowed things into my life. I used to read books on witchcraft and Satanism and listen to those kinds of bands, but I never considered myself like a devil-worshiper. But now on the other side of it looking back at my life, it's so obvious what the devil's scheme was, and what was going on, but in the midst of it was just confusion. I just thought I was trying to live my life and make things happen, you know, and all that was taking place in the spiritual realm, so I couldn't actually see.

Now if someone hasn't heard your testimony: you eventually went to Teen Challenge because of a drug problem, and you had this incredible experience of just coming dramatically into God's light. So what was it like to have been in that darkness and then, suddenly, to have your mind, your heart, your emotions just changed and transformed and made whole?

I mean it was incredible. The first month I was there at the program, I was unable to get drugs, I had no escape, I was off medications; all that. So the darkness was very vivid; I mean I remember just getting angry at someone in the program and going and writing poetry about how I was going to kill him and all this kind of stuff. It was like, all of a sudden, I had nowhere to hide and all that demonic stuff was like there and I couldn't retreat from it by medicating. So when I finally surrendered my life to Christ, it was a moment of “I can't do this anymore and if you're real you have to show yourself.” And, if not, I figured I would just go and end up dead. I knew where I would head, it was kind of like a “make or break” situation. You know the Scriptures talk about being a new creation “the old has gone the new is come,” and I look back at my life and it was so obvious that God had done something because I literally transformed, not necessarily overnight, but in a very short period of time, into a completely different person. Every motive of my heart, the priorities, the peace inside; my mind being renewed and clear and just the desire to be with the Lord. All I wanted to do was worship and pray. We weren't allowed to keep the lights on at night except for if you're in the bathroom so I would go in the bathroom with my Bible, and for hours I would just dig through the Scriptures, because I was so hungry for God. A scripture says that we're brought out of darkness into his marvelous light. For some people that's more subtle, but for me that was a very apparent reality—not only to me but to everyone around me.

So today you're a pastor and you have a speaking ministry, you've written several books and I know one of the things that just burdens you deeply is that you want to see the church be what she has been called to be both corporately and individually. So when you see someone who's, maybe not even going down as dramatic a path as you, but just believing those lies, and you're seeing the enemy leading them away from the Lord, what do you do to help?

There's a couple things: the first one, probably, should be obvious but in today's church cultures, sometimes things aren’t so obvious, but the Word of God being the unadulterated truth of God; that every lie that the enemy has ever come up with, the truth is in that word. I think we underestimate the power of the Scriptures, so when I'm counseling, it's taking them to the scripture, when I'm preaching, when I minister, in my books; everything that I do, I'm very concerned that the scripture is throughout it because that's the truth that really transforms people's lives. I remember listening to David Wilkerson a few years ago in a message, and he defined a stronghold as any lie that a Christian believes and that's always stuck with me. The solution to that is, if you're believing a lie, then you need to be confronted with the truth and we get that with the Word. The other thing that I found, for me personally, that's been very powerful, is the power of testimony. I had that experience recently with somebody, just being able to minister to somebody and say “listen, I may not have been exactly where you're at, but let me tell you a little bit about what God brought me out of,” and there's something that clicks with people when they see, “well maybe I'm not the only one dealing with this,” and when they see somebody who's been through something similar and those lies have been overthrown and they're walking in the truth, it gives them the hope—it's almost like an invitation: God did this for me, he can do it for you.

One last follow up: the further you go into that darkness the more power that darkness actually has over you, and I know that the hopelessness and despair can feel like "I am never getting out of this prison." What would you say to a person like that today?

I would tell them there is hope... You've heard the story, if someone is listening right now. I'm not the only one that God has done that for, but part of the enemy's deception is to make you believe there's no hope for you. And that's one of the reasons a lot of people, I think, they refuse Christ or they refuse the offer of salvation because they feel “God might love someone else. He might be able to die for them, but there's no hope for me.” If you can identify that as not truth and look at the truth of the scripture that there's hope in Christ, that He died for the world, the sins of the world, and that he died for you. If you can begin to realize, “maybe I feel hopeless, it could just be the enemy telling me that but what if God does love me? What if he really does want to set me free? what if there is hope for me?” and begin to confront those lies and find somebody, especially, that you can walk through this with. Listening to an interview is maybe a first step in receiving that help, but go to a spiritual leader, a pastor, a trusted friend and begin to share those things that are inside. I find, oftentimes, the more deceived you are the more you keep that stuff internally and when you begin to speak it out loud, you realize how ridiculous it sounds; when you actually say to somebody, “there's no hope for someone like me,” and when it comes out you're like wait a minute that sounds like a lie. So sometimes just confiding in someone who has the spiritual ability to help you. Tell them, “here's what I'm feeling what do you think?” Allow them to minister to you and allow them to begin to bring you to the truth of God's word and it would be a great first step in the process.