An essential component of overthrowing the reign of self is living in the flow of God’s love. Jesus said that if we loved God with all our hearts and our neighbors as ourselves, we would actually be fulfilling all of His commandments. Pride and selfishness cannot flourish, when a person is defined by a desire to meet the needs of others. A life lived in the service of others brings about the death of the self-life.

Anger is a strong feeling of displeasure or hostility towards another person. It can happen when our will is crossed by people or circumstances, and we choose to respond by being annoyed and malicious towards them. Ultimately the self-life is at the root of these sins. We brought biblical counselor David Rodriguez into the studio to share his own experiences with anger and vengeance. Let’s see what can learn from how the Lord mercifully exposed his sin and began to set Him free. (From Episode #425 - Exposing the Pride that Needs to be Perfect).

Host: When pride goes unchecked in a person’s heart there are various sins that tend to come out of them. One of those manifestations is brooding anger, and if you desire to overcome its influence in your life, then understanding the connection between it and pride is critical. This anger isn’t the kind where someone explodes in a moment of rage. Instead, it sits just below the surface, where it can simmer and stew unseen by the eyes of others.

David: My thought life was full of revenge and anger. I saw someone getting something that I wanted, whether it was a job, a girl or a car and I was very frustrated towards them. I was just angry at others because I thought I deserved what they were getting. There was a lot of bitterness, and a lot of brooding over issues I thought I had been wronged in. I always wanted myself to be promoted over these people. I always wanted to step on them and step over them, and I was frustrated that I wasn't able to do that. So I wanted to bring them back down to where I was, which is what I thought they deserved. I was always replaying in my mind how I could best these people, teach them something they didn't know and show them up in some way that would kind of humiliate them.

Host: This brooding anger can sneak by without seeming to break any of God's commandments. Just as the Pharisees were blind to how their lustful thoughts were as wicked as adultery, so too are our evil thoughts toward others as wicked as actual murder.

David: Something I remember very specifically happened when I was in high school. There was a girl that I liked, and we were in band together. One day I walked into the band hall and she and one of my friends were holding hands. I remember my gut reaction was immediately anger. I walked outside and turned around immediately to try and hide my anger from everyone that was around me. I went outside and tried to get over it somehow. Eventually my friend came out. I remember looking at Him and thinking awful thoughts, wishing that he was dead and wishing that harm would come to him. I somehow managed to kind of repress those thoughts and keep them hidden. Even though we remained friends, I'm sure that I was always trying to somehow, in subtle or not so subtle ways, one up him or make him pay for what he had done to me.

Host: We can all be blind to the type of sin that broods in the heart, subtly tainting the way that we think and act towards others. We may act kind towards people that inside we wish would pay for the ways they’ve hurt us and excuse our actions because we aren’t acting out on those thoughts and feelings. But this isn’t how Jesus taught us to act towards others. He taught us that to desire something is the same as doing it. See Matthew 5. He taught us that our righteousness has to go way beyond the kind that is only outward. God requires real heart change, real love and a real renewing of the mind. If we don't examine ourselves through the lens of scripture, then our own sinful thinking, not the Holy Spirit's, will be the driving force of our thoughts and actions.

{{blog-brse="/blog-ads-storage"}}

David: I can clearly see now that this brooding anger and desire for vengeance was a mechanism that was deeply rooted in a strong self-exalting attitude that I had. I reacted to not getting to what I wanted, or not being elevated to a certain position because I had such a high view of myself. I thought I was worthy of attention. I thought I was worthy of promotion. I thought I should get whatever I wanted. So when I saw others getting it, I wanted to defend my honor, so to speak. I wanted to do whatever it took to get what I thought I deserved.  

Host: God wants to set us free from a self-centered existence because a life dominated by selfish thoughts and actions will trap us in misery. But to do this, He must deal with what’s at the root of this prideful way of life or we will remain trapped in sin and sadness.

David: I can see that a major part of my staying in that cycle was that whenever those things were exposed, instead of dragging myself out into the open to get dealt the blow that it deserved, I pitied myself. So, I was stuck in self-pity instead of letting the Lord deal with me, and instead of letting even my superiors deal with me. This got me thinking that I deserved better than I was getting.

Host: Those who remain stuck in this kind of anger, or in any kind of pride, will lack the true peace that comes from walking in a close relationship with God. But there is a way out. We don't have to stay in that kind of thinking. If we will pray for God to open our eyes and allow the situations, He places us in to expose what is really inside of us, He will change us. If we will humble ourselves and say we're wrong, then we can begin the path of repentance into real freedom from the sins that bind us.    

David: The Lord was very merciful to me. He brought me to a job where He began showing me what I was really like. As the bad fruits of anger and vengeance started coming out of me, He helped me to see what was under it: a self-exalting attitude that was always striving to get ahead at the expense of others. So I ended up in a lot of situations where He helped me to see my own pride. He taught me to, instead of being envious or vengeful, to humble myself and submit to where He had me.

Another vital heart attitude that enables us to overthrow sin’s rule in our lives is humility. Pride brought about the fall of Satan and pride put man at odds with God, resulting in the destruction of man. But humility undoes the damage of the fall, because when a man becomes humble, God becomes his protector and his friend. The role of humility in a Christian’s life can hardly be overestimated.

Jesus alone knows how to save the human soul, and to bring it out of bondage and into freedom. For the last six weeks we’ve explored how all our struggles with sin can be traced back to the “self-life,” and the pride that comes out of it. Now it’s time to look to the great Savior and Physician of our souls to see what His remedy is. In this show we look at the important roles poverty of spirit, brokenness, and surrender have in the process of being saved by Jesus Christ.

We’re taking a break this week from our current series. We know that the Lord is actively sanctifying and preparing His church to spend eternity with Him as His bride. But there is also a frightening reality that many people who claim to be Christians are false professors. Satan uses the currents of our culture to entice Christians to live for themselves rather than God, to pursue pleasure rather than Jesus in self-denial, and to pursue worldly philosophies rather than the pure Word of God. These truly are perilous time, and we all need to know how to go through in the power of Jesus Christ.

Do you ever find yourself bragging to others about your spiritual life or telling others about how you gave financially, or how you spent extra time in your devotions?  These can often point to a dangerous sickness called spiritual pride. Pastor Steve Gallagher joins us this week to help us understand this deceptive piety. We also talk about how easy it is for other sins to creep in with spiritual pride.

Often times when we are hurt by the words or actions of others, our self-life is damaged and we are tempted to respond with bitterness. Bitterness is one of the symptoms among prideful people. Our Overcomers At-Home Program director Jordan Yoshimine helps us understand the connection between pride and bitterness. (From Episode #424 - Exposing the Pride that Tries to Protect our Inside World).

Host: Jordan in our last episode we looked at violent rage. Bitterness and resentment aren't as dramatic as that, for sure, but the results spiritually can be just as deadly. At first I'd guess that bitterness starts innocently in a way, and perhaps imperceptibly. But if left unchecked it comes out of us. People around us can just tell that we're bitter and were resentful. I know that you've struggled a lot with bitterness before coming to Pure Life, and you've helped to counsel other men in this sin. What are some of the commonalities that lead to bitterness and resentment in a person's heart?

Jordan: That's a good question. I think first and foremost if I were to really sit and think about counseling sessions that I've been in, and from my own personal experience, one of the most common threads you see in a person that's dealing with bitterness is that they've been sinned against in their past. That's sexual abuse for some, for others some form or abandonment, or other sinful actions. Usually if it's something sexual in nature it's someone close to them, such as a family member or a sibling or a relative. It's already traumatic as it is, whatever that sexual sin or abuse is, but then you have the dynamic of it being a family member or someone close to you that you trusted, so it exponentially increases the potential for a person to be bitter. I would also add unforgiving to that, because those two are linked together.

Host: What about personality types? Do you know if there are certain personality types that tend more toward bitterness?

Jordan: Yeah, definitely. I was thinking about this in preparing for the podcast. It's people who crave and idolize the affirmation a man. It's people who have what we call in counseling, "the fear of man." Bitterness can happen when they don't receive affirmation from people, when they look to a parent or teacher or coach or whoever that authority figure is. If they don't receive that affirmation from their authority figures they feel unloved. They feel rejected, and then a seed that Satan wants to plant is bitterness. So, it's injected in people who really are not very confident, who are insecure, who look to people to affirm them in whatever they're doing.

Host: Yes, so in a sense it's like that one sin—sin of idolizing the approval of men—then leads that other sin. It's interesting because what you're really talking about is that bitterness is coming up in a person's life to try to protect them from more hurt.

Jordan: To speak to that, I'd say that anyone familiar with the podcast or Pure Life Ministries is going to be familiar with the term "Spiral of Degradation." It's the same thing in a person who's dealing with bitterness. Let's say a person sinned against them, but instead of turning to the Lord they end up turning to self. I've heard that a person who's dealing with fear of man has walls that go up within them. And when they were a child they didn’t understand what was happening, so they would put up walls to protect themselves from getting hurt. But as they grow up and continue keeping those walls up, it also keeps the Lord out. So, when you keep the Lord out, what happens is that those seeds that got planted in youth start coming up and sprouting into fruit of bitterness, anger, rage, rebellion, and there's no room for anyone with in that, which includes the Lord. Then Satan has free reign, and he just waters that seeds more and more to keep them in that bitterness.

Host: Okay, so you talked about how bitterness and resentment are ways of protecting ourselves from being hurt again. What other things do you think bitterness and resentment are promising to give us?

Jordan: Well, I'm going to have to use a personal example. So I’ll talk about my relationship with my dad and my parents. My dad was a pastor, a very good pastor in fact. He had some really great gifts of visitation, of hospitality and of just reaching out to others. But this was at the expense of my two older brothers and I. I'm not blaming him now, but when I was growing up certainly that was an area that I felt abandoned. I would see my dad spending all this time with these families trying to witness to them, while I'd be wishing he was there to help me with my homework. So that really planted the seed of bitterness in me. Then when I became a teen that seed got watered, but instead of turning to the Lord, which I could have done because I was in church, Satan was able to water those seeds of bitterness.

The perceived benefit kept me in a desire for retribution and revenge. My thought process was "you hurt me, now I'm going to hurt you." In some instances, I would have a conversation either with my dad or with my parents, and I went off on them. I'd say "you do this, blah blah blah. What about me?" That bitterness, that self-protective pride, that desire for retribution just fed other sins in my life. I used guilt to get what I wanted from my parents, and of course, it would leave them feeling guilty. There was shame that was fed into as well, because I was Asian American. I would have an argument with them, and they would feel guilty, and then they would try to cover it up. I'd tell them that I wanted to go on a trip and that I needed a thousand dollars, so they'd give it to me! You can see that my bitterness led to manipulation. I'd say, "Yeah mom, I need a thousand dollars," but then I'd go spend it on sexual sin, or going out to drink or whatever. It was all just a lie!

I think a lot of times people who have been hurt want some sort of retribution. It's not even directed, perhaps, at the person who sinned against them. That was the reality of my relationship with my pastor. There was a perceived slight against me, so I was very critical of the pastor and undermined his authority. I got people on my side. It was that verse you used from Hebrews twelve fifteen, "the root of bitterness defiles many." It defiled many people in the church, and to my shame, some people left the church and now aren't in any church. My bitterness and letting that be expressed in the church setting had the perceived benefit that I was going to get back at my pastor. But now several people aren't even in church. I still deal with that, the pain of "did my sin have something to do with these people walking away from the Lord?" It's tough, very tough.

Host: You talked about it a little bit already that bitterness has something that it promises us, but it's not going to give us those things. Sin never delivers what it promises. Really what results from the sin is we begin to become distorted, corrupted, and twisted in ourselves. If a person listening is struggling with bitterness right now and they’re thinking, "that's me," can you talk about where that sin is going to take them if they don't repent?

Jordan: Sure. It's hard not to get emotional about it. What Satan wants to do for those of you who have bitterness and self-protective pride, who are putting their walls up to others, is isolate you. You don't want to be around people and you're afraid of getting hurt. You just don't want to get hurt. You're blame shifting. Number one, people don't want to be around people who are bitter. It's because they are negative and always oozing bitterness. So, the very thing that you crave, the affirmation of man, is not attained because bitterness is pushing people away. You may ask, "why don't people like being around me?" and "I'm trying to do everything I can to be liked." But when all you talk about when you're with others is how angry you are at someone, and you're blaming your parents or whoever, you end up being isolated and alone. People don't want to be around that. And in those instances when you feel like there's no way out and no one loves me, what do you think Satan is doing behind the scenes? He's putting these thoughts into your head and saying, "just kill yourself."  

People who are bitter end up depressed and isolated.  They often become so angry, as Chris Hurley talked about in his last segment on anger, that they go into these violent fits of rage. Then this can lead to domestic abuse and other dangerous behaviors. So, this isolation is just death. Loneliness is exactly where Satan wants to take you, to steal, kill and destroy those who are stuck in bitterness and isolation.
‍

Host: I'll never forget talking with Dustin Renz in a show that we did a couple of months ago. He talked about how when he looked back on how he descended into sin, he could just see how the enemy was just holding this thing in front of him and saying, "just keep coming closer; just keep coming a little bit further; a little bit further, yeah I’ve got this thing for you." And he said you can lock on to that thing, that sin that Satan is promising you and you don't realize where you’re going. You don't realize how far you're descending into the perversion, the corruption, the anger, the bitterness, the envy. Sin is just breeding in your heart, and then you suddenly look up and say, "how did I get here?" It's because you were following the enemy down that path that he wanted you to go. Jordan, I want to ask you about hindrances to overcoming bitterness and resentment. Because we're going to talk about how to repent of pride in future segments, but what would you say are some things that keep a person from being set free from bitterness.

Jordan: Sure, I have four things written down in my notes. One is unforgiveness, a lack of forgiveness. You have to be able to forgive the people that have sinned against you. That's a very important thing. It means letting go of the bitterness. But it's also allowing the Lord to search your heart. You need to pray this kind of prayer, "Lord come in, I don't want these seeds of bitterness to continue in my life, I don't want that to grow. I don't want to affect other people negatively my life, so Lord Jesus will you search me?" That takes a lot for a person who's been in self-protective pride, whose lacked vulnerability. So, what prevents people from really growing in the Lord is that lack of forgiveness. Not allowing the Lord to search your heart, and not seeing your own sin of bitterness. We say, "this person sinned against me." But our response to their sin can also be sin. However, a lot of times people are blind to that. So, the right response to seeing other people’s sins is this: "Lord open my eyes to see my own sin in this."

{{blog-brse="/blog-ads-storage"}}

Host: In upcoming episodes we're going to address the ways to overcome pride and the self-life. However, you've already touched on it Chris. Humbling ourselves is an important step, and that's going to be clear in future episodes where we’ll talk about how to live in freedom from pride. But to close out this interview I want to talk about one more thing. Are there things that would hinder a person from getting victory over rage and anger? I think if we could discuss a couple hindrances that would help the audience be ready to hear the positive steps toward victory.

Jordan: I think in the world of psychology today one of the common themes is the idea of self-esteem. As the church, it’s an issue if we’re looking to sources outside of God’s word, such as self-esteem, to build our lives upon. We tend to have a high view of ourselves in America for various reasons. A high self-esteem is often true of those who are very wealthy. And for those who have a great education and great knowledge among us; we tend to exalt ourselves over those things and we give less esteem to those we consider to be intelligent. Self-esteem has a huge role to play in hindering men from believing that they are the problem in their lives with their pride, with their anger and with their rage.

Another factor that hinders people from overcoming rage and anger is resistance to authority, whether it's spiritual authority or earthly authority. When men come to Pure Life they are put under the authority of a biblical counselor. For men who have never submitted to authority in their lives, and who have called themselves Christians, when they are sat down and their sins are confronted they respond in anger. In counseling we talk about the lives of these men and look at the fruit that has come out of them, and it gets them angry. You can see it in their demeanor when they sit back in the chair the counselor just spoke about something in their hearts and to them it’s a frontal attack on who they believe themselves to be. It takes a while for many men to finally sit down and say to me, “I’ve realized after reading the Bible that I am the problem.” And this takes a while, to break through that wall of self-defense that we all erect to protect ourselves.

“Work hard.” “Do your best.” What do you think of when you hear things like that? Now, there is obviously nothing wrong with putting your heart into something and seeking to do your best. But as with any good thing, our human nature has a knack for corrupting it into something wicked. Enter perfectionism. The perfectionist takes these things to an unhealthy, and prideful level. They hear words like “do your best” as “you must be perfect.” But what is so sinful about perfectionism and why is it prideful?

When a person has a proud heart, it can display itself in many ways. One of those ways is through outbursts of anger, or rage. In this interview from our series Exposing the Root of All Sin, pastoral counselor Chris Hurley helps us see the connection between pride and anger more clearly.

Host: I asked Chris Hurley to join me in the studio. Chris is one of our pastoral counselors in the residential program. I want him to talk with me about our first daughter of pride which is rage. The Greek word translated rage means anger that can be explosive and deadly. Chris, I’d like to get your perspective because as you counsel men in our residential program, I’m sure you come across this. One thing that we know about sin of every stripe is that it's progressive. A person doesn't wake up one morning and start visiting prostitutes, and he doesn't give himself over to rage the first time that he's provoked. How does a person get to the place where they're given over to rage? Do you see common things that lead men to that point over time?‍

Chris: Sure, they all seem to express in one way or another a huge amount of self-righteousness. Within their own eyes they've created a false impression that they are always right. So what we see in men that get filled with rage is that if anyone tests the boundaries of their belief system about themselves, they’re viewed as an intruder and a danger because they have such a fragile wall of self-defense around them. Their wall has been fostered by hurts, pains and issues from their past. If you question them about who they think they are in their own eyes it can blow them out of the water and they just suddenly erupt.

Host: Yeah, I'm glad that you mentioned this reality of self-righteousness and arrogance within people, and how it can lead to violent anger. We do see this happening in the life of Jesus as well. In Luke chapter four, He was ministering in his hometown synagogue in Nazareth and He explained to the people that they weren’t going to believe in His ministry. He was rejected vehemently because He had to deal with them as sinners, in a sense, and it offended them. So I'm glad that you brought that up, it’s very helpful. Can you identify any other prideful attitudes that fuel rage and violent anger?

Chris: I can look at my own life and see that perfectionism fuels arrogance. They are hand in hand because you see yourself as being above everyone else. The Bible is very clear when it says “think of others more highly than you think of yourself” (Philippians 2:3), but for a person that's filled with pride and the idea that being perfect is the only way they can be acceptable to others, it's a free highway to anger! You can't be perfect, so you’ll be angry when your not. When people say to you “hey, that's not good enough,” it can cause you to resent them and be full of rage.

I looked at some Biblical examples before coming in to talk with you today that expand on this truth. Naaman, for instance, was a general in the Syrian army and highly valued by his king because he was a very good soldier and a righteous man in the sight of the King. So when he went to Israel as a leper to get cured, and his little servant girl came back from Elijah and said “you go wash in the Jordan River seven times,” his pride was deeply insulted. He was likely thinking he deserved a ceremony, or Elijah would say brilliant prayers over him to show his great value. The great thing about this story is that the ones who spoke truth into his life were his servants. The lowest of the low were the ones who had it right. His servant said to Naaman, “if he had asked you to do a great thing you would have done it well, so then why not try this and see what happens?” Of course, we know he gets healed by God in this act of washing in the Jordan and humbling himself.

Another biblical example that illustrates a connection between pride and rage is Nebuchadnezzar. When this ancient king erected a massive statue and made it an edict that everyone was to bow down before it, Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego refused because they believed in Yahweh. When this was brought to the attention of Nebuchadnezzar, and they said “no, we will not bow down to your image,” he was filled with rage. He said, “take the furnace and heat it seven times hotter!” I can see that Nebuchadnezzar’s pride was assaulted. His grand view of himself assaulted. He was thinking “I am great… Am I not worthy of you bowing to me?” Wow. This is prideful arrogance which led to his rage. And we ourselves, as an often proud an arrogant people, we have bowed to everything but our God. One of the things we've bowed to his anger.

{{blog-brse="/blog-ads-storage"}}

Host: In upcoming episodes we're going to address the ways to overcome pride and the self-life. However, you've already touched on it Chris. Humbling ourselves is an important step, and that's going to be clear in future episodes where we’ll talk about how to live in freedom from pride. But to close out this interview I want to talk about one more thing. Are there things that would hinder a person from getting victory over rage and anger? I think if we could discuss a couple hindrances that would help the audience be ready to hear the positive steps toward victory.

Chris: I think in the world of psychology today one of the common themes is the idea of self-esteem. As the church, it’s an issue if we’re looking to sources outside of God’s word, such as self-esteem, to build our lives upon. We tend to have a high view of ourselves in America for various reasons. A high self-esteem is often true of those who are very wealthy. And for those who have a great education and great knowledge among us; we tend to exalt ourselves over those things and we give less esteem to those we consider to be intelligent. Self-esteem has a huge role to play in hindering men from believing that they are the problem in their lives with their pride, with their anger and with their rage.

Another factor that hinders people from overcoming rage and anger is resistance to authority, whether it's spiritual authority or earthly authority. When men come to Pure Life they are put under the authority of a biblical counselor. For men who have never submitted to authority in their lives, and who have called themselves Christians, when they are sat down and their sins are confronted they respond in anger. In counseling we talk about the lives of these men and look at the fruit that has come out of them, and it gets them angry. You can see it in their demeanor when they sit back in the chair the counselor just spoke about something in their hearts and to them it’s a frontal attack on who they believe themselves to be. It takes a while for many men to finally sit down and say to me, “I’ve realized after reading the Bible that I am the problem.” And this takes a while, to break through that wall of self-defense that we all erect to protect ourselves.

Pride can spring up in many ways depending on our temperament. Last week, we talked about pride that loves the spotlight. But maybe you’re not like that; maybe you want to be in the background. Maybe you’re sensitive, quiet, or even shy. In this episode, we’ll look at the expressions of the self-life and pride that are revealed in those who want to keep themselves safe – safe from embarrassment, safe from being exposed, safe from being hurt.

In this interview, Kathy Gallagher draws on her own journey with the Lord and years of counseling, to help identify forms of pride that betrayed and hurting wives often struggle with.

Host: Kathy last week we talked with one of our counselors about the way that a selfish lifestyle and a proud heart go hand in hand with sexual sin. I'm sure that you've experienced firsthand when your husband Steve was in sexual sin, that there was a very proud heart and a very selfish lifestyle that was giving birth to this sexual sin. Today we want to look at things from a wife's perspective.   We've found that pride and selfishness are also major issues for the wives that we counsel.  I'm sure you've experienced this yourself and seen it in the lives of the many wives you've counseled throughout the years. To start off, could you talk about some of the ways that selfishness and pride present themselves in wives that you've counseled?

Kathy: Yeah, I would really like to start off with my own testimony because we all respond in different ways.  I think many people will understand where I'm coming from with this. Because of Steve's sexual sin, I eventually began to see how the Lord was using that to expose what was in me.  He was using Steve's sin to reveal to me what was in my own heart. And I was mostly looking for relief from the pain and a way out of the mess. I was not looking at me; I was looking at him, and what he was doing to me. I fell prey to the whole victim thing, and in a sense I was a victim.  However, the decisions that I was making, especially in the early days, were very selfish and very sinful. I naturally justified. What I mean is, in my nature it was easy for me to justify adultery. As in "he did this, and now I'm justified with what I do"? Yes, I was justifying adultery.  I was justifying anger and bitterness.  I was self-righteous.

My attitude was: "look at what he's doing to me!"  And that phrase, "look at what he's doing to me" is the gateway to justifying sinful attitudes and sinful behaviors. Those natural human responses are what God was after in me.  He was going after my own prideful and arrogant responses to what was being done to me. I know that sounds hard, especially for women who are really hurting right now. They don't see it that way. I didn't see it that way, for sure.  It took the Lord years to convince me and to show me what was coming out of my mouth, out of my heart and out of my life. I was standing outside of the scriptures.  In my own mind, my title as wife put me in a different category. I don't think anybody thinks this through, it's just the response that comes out: "I am a wife who's been betrayed by my husband." So my feelings and my pain from what he was doing dictated my responses. I assumed that scriptures like first Corinthians thirteen didn't really apply to me; at least in my marriage they didn't apply to me. "Blessed are the meek," I was anything but meek or humble. I wasn't looking for that path. I think that's where a lot of women find themselves at. They are lost in a sea of hurt and anger.  And God is going to go after that because He's good. He's a good Father; and a good parent doesn't let their children just go on and on and on in their "bad behavior."

Host: I'm glad that you brought up the role that God plays in our life as Father, because that's something that we often don't see amid trials and difficulties. The other thing that we often don't see is the role that the enemy is playing, and the role that sin is trying to play in our lives.  Because, obviously the feelings of hurt and betrayal are not sinful, and I'm sure that Jesus keenly felt the betrayal of mankind and even from His disciples.  But in that betrayal He never sinned.  We're different, however.  We're corrupted, and pride is relentless in its attempt to overcome us.  It's trying to ensnare us and dominate us in situations like this. Can you talk a little bit about that, so we can come to understand the enemy behind all these things?

Kathy: Sure. This is a powerful tool in the devil's arsenal and he wields it continually. He's always looking for an opportunity to ensnare us through pride. Most of us betrayed wives didn’t even think about pride, you know?  But I've never met a person who did not struggle intensely with the pain of an unfaithful husband. And I have never once felt that it was wrong to experience those feelings. As you said Nate, God Himself experiences the pain and betrayal of his own unfaithful people every day. He lives with it. It's a constant and unending grief in His heart. He also knows what we're going through and He understands it.

However, women still have pride issues in their human nature. I think the biggest pride issue I have seen in women is those who take absolute control over their husband.  They feel the need for constant updates and information.  Their compelled to say, "where were you?"  The feel a need to know, "what did you spend money on?"  Feeling anxious that he's looking at his phone and looking at his computer. They're driven to call him throughout the day.  It's a fear driven pride. There's no other word really to describe it. Because what's behind it is, "I'm protecting myself" and "I'm going to keep myself together," as well as "I'm going to control you."  Her motivating belief towards her husband is: "I'm going to make you do the right thing;" and "I'm going to fix this thing." I have probably dealt with that issue more than anything else.

There are others who try to control it in the way of seeking peace at any cost. I could categorize myself in that because I was willing to do things that were unthinkable to make him do the right thing. I really thought that I could get him to see things my way by going along with his sin.  That was such a horrible, horrible grief to me, and I know it was a grief to God.  But the older I got and the more I've started to really see things from God's perspective.  Perhaps the ugliest thing I saw in myself was that I didn't care enough about Steve to step in and say "no."  From the standpoint of caring for his soul, not in being a control freak, this would have been the loving thing to do to him.  But for too long in those early years I failed to say, "stop, I am not going to live like this." But I would think to myself, "this is not what God has called me to." I didn't care that much about spiritual things. I didn't care that much about my husband. I cared about me, and I was willing to go along with whatever I needed to go along with to keep the peace and make him do the right thing. So the bottom line is that all of what is in us is just selfishness. I hate to say that because I'm talking to women who are hurt. They want to be comforted, and they need to be comforted.  But this isn't the path. The path of pride will always lead you to ruin, and that is what the devil is going for.

{{blog-brse="/blog-ads-storage"}}

Host: Yeah, the path that seems like it's leading toward wholeness can actually be taking us toward ruin.  Satan is able to create these images and unrealities, and to just keep us coming toward something we desire.  You think it's leading you in a good way, and then it's revealed to not be the case. That's what we've found. That's why we're saying these things. It's because we know where that path of pride and selfishness goes. So we're earnestly telling you: don't go there.

Kathy: You know I'll tell you something Nate. When people continue going and being led down that path they become hardened in their hearts.  You can become callous because the enemy is leading you.  And indeed he is cajoling you, and is wooing you to fight for your rights. He'll say, "defend yourself," "do not put up with this stuff," and "I'm not going to put up with it!" There's something in that attitude that is hardening. I know that path from experience.  But I also know the path of brokenness. I needed the Lord to step in and start exposing me. So that's what He was doing. He was showing me what I was doing wrong.  When I started looking at what the Word of God is actually saying I couldn't get away from my failure to God as a believer. I'm a Christian first and a wife second. There were all these emotions and all these feelings. But God revealed my sin! The sin was just so destructive, and the pride that was in both of us was destroying us both. The enemy was having his way. But then the Lord started leading me down His path of submission. Not to sin, and not to my husband's sin, but to the Lord. It was a long and arduous path, but there's something valuable we gain in the suffering for Jesus, if we will allow the Lord to use it. This doesn't mean we're going to get it all right, and that it'll be rosy, but we'll get a few things right. It's a path of brokenness and humility. It's the path that Jesus himself took and He is our example.

Host: Yes, obviously I'm not a wife and I've never been through this, but from my own testimony I've experienced the entrenched self-righteousness of believing that I am better than anyone else. That prideful belief runs so deep. It takes so many revelations of our sinfulness and the cross, as well as the holiness and the love of God to break us out of that self-righteous belief. To destroy the belief that says I'm good and that I have anything to recommend me to God, that I'm better than other people. It is a hard pill to swallow.  This is coming from a person who's done horrible things. Most wives, I would guess, haven't done that.

Kathy: You know that's not just what Jesus died for.  He didn't just die for sinful behaviors, but for attitudes as well. And the attitude, "I would never do that" is what He's going for.  He's going after that. I'm sure most Christians have probably heard this before, but I'm going to say it again: under the right circumstances, given the opportunity, there isn't much evil you wouldn't do. We're evil, and that is a revelation that every believer needs to come to.  You cannot come to the cross until you understand your black heartedness. Jesus did not come to heal the healthy; He came to heal the sick.  He came to redeem us from every lawless deed. Whether or not we've ever committed sexual sin, or whether or not we were Hitler in our hearts, that doesn't matter. We are fallen. The thing that was a game changer for me was Luke chapter eighteen: the publican and the Pharisee.  These two, the righteous one and the sinner went to the temple. They went to church to pray. The self-righteous Pharisee who thought he was good said "I would never do that!" If you finish that passage, the scripture says he did not go home justified in God's eyes. The tax collector on the other hand wouldn't even look up to God because he was so ashamed, so guilt ridden, so beaten down and fully aware of who and what he was.  For him his sinfulness was real.  And for me it wasn't just sexual sin, I came to the point where I saw myself in that man.  That's who I was. I couldn't even look up to heaven.  And just like him I came to beat my breast and say "God be merciful to me the sinner!" As Jesus said that man went home justified, that is what He did for me.  When I saw that Jesus had hung on that cross for the "good little girl" I had thought I was, God’s amazing love became real to me.

In my book "When His Secret Sin Breaks Your Heart," chapter five is called a level playing field.  That's where I describe what I went through when God used the cross of Calvary to break my heart.  It put me on level ground with Steve. I saw that I had already committed so much sin by that point, and that I was actually a sinner. Until a person wraps their head around this truth, they can't have the compassion, and the understanding and the willingness to go through with another sinner until they've had that real revelation. And calling yourself Christian means nothing. It doesn't mean anything to say "I'm a Christian, I go to church and a prayer meeting on Wednesday." Whatever!  It's what is flowing out of you as a believer in your daily life towards your enemies that matters. At least what we think are our enemies.  

Host: As you were talking I was just thinking about how the enemy paints a picture to lead us into destruction, and he also paints a picture to keep us from life.  The idea of me seeing and finding out just how wrong I am as a person; he's always telling us, through our sinful nature, "don't do it," "That's suffering, misery and pain," and "God would never want that." It's like a barrier keeping us from real life and freedom in God. Because like you said, that publican went home right with God. That's real freedom.

Kathy: It sure is. And you can live with anything and practically anybody when you are that meek. That's what it takes is meekness, and a real humbling of your pride. God is faithful, and He knows how to take us that way. The question is do you want to go that way? And are you going to argue against Him? Because our natural responses are part of the fall, and those are what Jesus came to redeem us from. That sinful and fallen nature in every form it takes.

Host: Ok, so if a wife is going this way, as you've said, the path of brokenness, humbling herself and receiving God’s forgiveness, and her husband is a repenting of His sin, and their relationship, is in that sense restored, there is still a lot of rebuilding and a lot of struggle for both people I'm sure. In the early stages, the self-life still needs a lot of dying.  It's on the cross, but man is it painful. How do you counsel couples to go through this early period without just being totally beaten down with discouragement?

Kathy: It's not easy, and I'm not going to pretend like it is.  It's very difficult. But once both of them are on the path there's so much hope. This is brief but I think it's life-changing If a person will just sit and think it through: quit looking to and at each other. Start there and then learn to say, "I was wrong, would you please forgive me?" You have to quit looking to that person to meet some need inside of you. We have a forced version of marital love in America, and it's probably worldwide. But it's been in America especially. It's a forced version of love that consists of a big wedding, a big house, lots of kids, all my personal needs being met by another person, marital bliss and the happily ever after deal. But true love is the tossing aside of personal happiness as trivial. True love is planting deep in our hearts the interests of another person. It is us meeting their need.  Not insisting that they meet our needs. If people can turn it around if they can start to think in terms of "I'm here for him" and "I'm here for her." As well as "I'm not here for me," "she's not here to satisfy my needs," and "he's not here to satisfy my needs," that selflessness is what makes marriage excellent.

This means a willingness to quit looking to that person to be your all in all. Doing this will eliminate and deal with so many problems! Perhaps just as important is the ability to say, "I was wrong, please forgive me." If you can do that marriage, you will have a very healthy and long marriage together.  You will become affectionate friends. You will have such deep camaraderie, such deep fellowship and intimacy.  Many people are grasping in their own strength. They're trying to do it in their own strength and desire, and they say "I'm going to make it happen!" But that's not the way God laid out for His people, or for any human being. It's through self-sacrifice and it is through selflessness. It's Jesus' life lived out in us and through us.

Every single person is vulnerable to the sin of pride. You might be the kind of person who loves being in the background or maybe you’re a people person. It makes no difference; our self-lives will find a way to express themselves. And It will do that in many ways, leaving us blind to the way pride takes root in our hearts. This week we’ll start with the type of pride found in those who want to be at the ‘top and in the center.’