Here is the full discussion from Episode #502. In it, Nate, Patrick, and Jon discuss their church backgrounds prior to coming to the Pure Life Residential Program and how it shaped their way of thinking. They look at how their background led them to elevate talent and good works over devotion to God, and how various online preachers and music artists influenced their religion more than the truth of God’s Word.

Resources

• Intoxicated with Babylon (Book) by Steve Gallagher

Church plays a significant role in the lives of many professing Christians today. It provides a sense of community and belonging. Church is a place where people rally around us when we're in trouble. It's the place where we develop our closest relationships. Sometimes it can be the scene of our deepest hurts. Our churches have a major impact on the kind of people that we become. But there is also something else that happens when we attend church, something that you may not have thought about. Our church is shaping our view of what it really means to be a Christian. And we're either getting a true representation of Christianity, or a false one. In today's episode we're going to look at one of Satan's key strategies in the war to unite mankind in rebellion against God - infiltrating the church with false teachers.

Resources

• Intoxicated with Babylon (Book) by Steve Gallagher
• When We Minimize Obedience, We Promote Lawlessness (Blog) By Steve Gallagher

The word “antichrist” typically incites images from an end-times movie and of a world leader set completely against the Christian religion. But as we’ve been learning throughout this series, antichrist isn’t just a person but a spirit. That spirit wants to lead all humanity in rebellion against God.

Steve Gallagher joins us in our studio to shed light on some of the specific schemes the spirit of antichrist uses to draw believers away from God. Pastor Steve also gives us some key tools that can help us stay vigilant, alert and unscathed from the enemy’s tactics. This is critical for any professing Christian who finds themselves in bondage to some form of sexual sin, which is so closely tied to the spirit of this world.

Resources

This series is based on the book Intoxicated with Babylon: The Seduction of God’s People in the Last Days by Steve Gallagher. You can find out more about that book by visiting our bookstore.

Once a man comes to the Lord in genuine repentance over sexual sin, he will begin a long and difficult journey. This “walk of repentance” means continuing to face the hard realities of who he has been and seeing how deeply he has hurt others. If he is married, one of the greatest sources of support the Lord can give him is a compassionate and caring wife. In this interview, Kathy Gallagher shares how a wife can support her husband as he learns to walk in true victory over sexual sin.

Nate: So, Kathy, this interview is part of our “Refined as Silver” series, and in our last talk with you, you really laid out what some of the vital issues are for wives. You were calling them to see a much higher purpose in the struggles of marriage, specifically the aftermath of sexual sin. And really, the issue isn't even just about the marriage, but about becoming Christlike, and a lot of that becoming process happens in the fire of trials. We’re going to continue talking about some of those themes, and today we’ll be discussing what it means to die to our own desires and become like Jesus in the midst of difficult situations.
         Speaking from a man's perspective, the Christian walk is a tough process, and even when a man has repented of some really big besetting sin, there's still so much in him that has to change. He’ll keep on struggling with selfishness, self-centeredness, irresponsibility, indecisiveness, and insensitivity. The list just goes on and on because we are a fallen people. In other words, we as men need a ton of grace and you've got a lot of firsthand experience with offering grace to a very needy man, because even after your husband, Steve, repented, things were still really challenging for him in his own Christian life. How can a wife support her husband, especially when she can see his old, flesh-nature rearing its ugly head in some way?

Kathy: It's difficult. The short answer is that you just have to learn how to control yourself. Often as woman, we operate out of fear and frustration because we've been through so much already. We often associate our husbands’ weaknesses or character flaws with his sin. If he's angry, short tempered or just disinterested, we can easily associate those things with his sexual sin. It takes time to learn when something is simply a flesh issue. Everyone has a flesh nature and every pitfall that a man has isn’t necessarily an indicator that he is in sexual sin. I know for me, irrational fear was a big issue because anytime Steve did anything that was rude, dismissive of me or just selfish, my immediate reaction was to think that he had been up to something. All his personality quirks in my mind were connected to his sexual sin, but that's not true and I just had to learn to be patient.
         I look back on my life and I see so much grace. The Lord helped me to be patient and not so self-focused and fearful of my husband being in sin again. When I did fall back into my irrational fears, it just led to a bunch of other issues sprouting up that we both had to deal with. The truth is that it is going to take time for a man to transform. Even though he has repented, it's going to take time for him to walk through a bunch of stuff. It's not just sexual sin that he has to overcome. In a certain way, that’s just the tip of the iceberg and we need to learn how to be patient and do our best to love our husband through the process.

Nate: As you're talking, what strikes me is that this process of living with a man who's got real issues and character flaws is itself a refining fire.

Kathy: Yeah. We have it in our minds that the guy that he was when we were dating is so different than the guy that we're married to now. Coming to grips with the disparity and the discrepancies that we see in him is very hard for us. But that's who he is. It’s good for us to let God use the disappointments that do come with marriage on both sides. Rather than letting those disappointments and discouragements turn us against our husbands, we need to ask the Lord to search our hearts. We need to ask the Lord to reveal what is in our hearts. We need to ask the Lord to cleanse us from the root of what is causing us to harbor bitterness and resentment towards our husband. The Lord used the trial of my husband’s sexual sin to tear down my walls of bitterness and pride. The trials and hard times don't fit in well with the American fairytale narrative of marriage very well, but it’s the reality. You put two sinners together and all the junk starts coming out.

Nate: It's interesting, because when we think about marriage in Ephesians 5 language, it's a picture of Christ and the church. But that's only one picture of what marriage is. It’s also this union of two imperfect people and God using iron to sharpen iron to create something that's much more like His image.

Kathy: That is what this process is. You are being melted down and the dross will be scraped away. In our flesh, none of us really want to go through the melting down process. We ask the Lord in prayer, “Lord, please refine me. Give me a pure heart.” Well, the reality of that answered prayer is a lot of death to self. In the early days, I used to pray that prayer all the time. I would pray, “Lord, just have all of me. Do in me everything you want to do in me. Make me the woman of God you want me to be and please make Steve the man of God you want him to be.” I didn't have a clue what I was actually asking for, but the Lord was faithful to start answering those prayers. As women we need that to happen in us every bit as much as our husbands do. We may not have been living in the same sin as our husbands, but we still have to go through the process of being refined, purified, and being made Holy.

<pull-quote>We may not have been living in the same sin as our husbands, but we still have to go through the process of being refined, purified, and being made Holy.<pull-quote><tweet-link>TweetThis<tweet-link>

Nate: I want to focus on how to support a man who is struggling in the battle for holiness, because one of the things that you see in the Old Testament is that a very strong picture of what it means to be Godlike is to bear other people's sins. That's what Jesus did for us. He took our sins on His shoulders and He bore them up to God so that we could be free. When we do that for other people, that is very godlike. But that represents a huge refining process for us, because we're not naturally like that. I was thinking maybe you could give some practical things that a wife could do to positively affect her husband. Then, maybe later, we can talk about things that she can avoid doing which could negatively affect him. You've mentioned in the past when we've had conversations about this that you did your best to keep your feelings of fear, suspicion and worry to yourself. Why is that so key when you're trying to support your husband?

Kathy: I feel like it can come off as if I'm always defending the husband and I’m only focusing on the shortcomings of the wife when I share, but that's not my heart. I just know from a lot of experience that a husband is not strong enough to bear the weight of a wife’s anxieties, because if he's truly repentant, he's going through a lot of stuff. True repentance means you're really facing off with yourself and you are getting really raw and real with yourself and with God. You have to look inside at who you are, and what you've done and face it. It takes a lot for a person to do that.
          It takes a ton of energy. It takes quite a bit of courage to do that, because what you end up seeing in yourself is nasty stuff. You start to see what you have done to other people and it's a lot to bear. Somehow in my youth, I understood that Steve was in the battle of his life. I knew that, but I don't know how I knew that, because I was too young to understand these things and certainly not spiritual at all. But somehow God got it into me. And I did not want to be one more source of weight to the already weighty battle that my husband was in. I wasn't going to remind him of what he did to me and how deeply he hurt me.

          One of the things I want to add as well is that one of the biggest issues for a lot of women is trust. It's enormous. It's one of our biggest issues probably because naturally as women our radars for someone to break our trust is always up. We don't want to get hurt and we don't want to go through being lied to or betrayed again. Some of the women going through these trials have children they have to worry about and they're trying to protect their kids. In a sense, during the trial of a husband’s sexual sin, a wife’s whole life is hanging in the balance. So, there's a lot of insecurity, but there comes a time when we have to rein in our fears and put our trust in the Lord because our husband doesn't have everything that we need.
         It takes time for a husband who is truly repentant to change. It does not happen overnight. It is not like, “Okay, he came to a place of brokenness before the Lord and now everything's good.” No, that's not how it goes. There's still a lot of internal junk to eradicate, deal with and face. I remember when Steve repented. It was tremendous. But my expectations were off the chart. I thought that everything was just wonderful, and everything was behind us. It wasn't behind us, but we were on a path towards the Lord that gave me so much hope.

Nate: This is so helpful because we as human beings have such a limited perspective on things. We oftentimes only see in the moment, and it really clouds our ability to discern the real issues. You're bringing to the forefront that it's incredibly helpful to a husband when a wife pushes back on her fears and doesn't load the fear of failure back onto her husband. I'm sure that sometimes a lot of husbands are also afraid for themselves that they're not going to make it.

Kathy: They absolutely are. They're terrified with the idea that they are not going to make it. When another load of a wife’s fear and doubt is piled on top of him, it's very disheartening and it's very discouraging.  Steve has told me before that one of the things that helped him so much was that I wasn't a drain on him. This is something else I would love to impart to these young women. Just support your husband and believe in him. If he has repented, you have no reason to keep looking to the past. You have every reason to go forward, but you must have the faith, not in your husband, but faith in the Lord. You have to trust in the Lord with all your heart. You can't lean on your own understanding. If you do, you will make mistake after mistake. You will go with your inclinations, your flesh, and your fear and that is not what either one of you need.

<pull-quote>Just support your husband and believe in him. If he has repented, you have no reason to keep looking to the past.<pull-quote><tweet-link>TweetThis<tweet-link>

Nate: Man, everything you are saying is biblical, but it is really counterintuitive. Another thing I've heard you say, which is totally counterintuitive, is that it's incredibly helpful to a husband when a wife is vulnerable with her own struggles. Why is that?

Kathy: If you look at Luke 18 and you start looking at the dynamic that was going on in the situation of the pharisee and the tax collector, you have this pharisee who had it all together, but then you have this slob over on the other side of the temple who could hardly even lift up his head to heaven to plead with God for mercy. That's the heart that I wanted, because I knew that's what I was. And I think that is the crux of vulnerability that a husband would deeply appreciate from his wife, because a lot of us wives can be self-righteous, and we can wave our holiness in front of our husbands. We frame words without trying to that end up comparing our righteousness to our husband’s unrighteousness and that is not what he needs. He already feels like a slob. He has so totally blown it and he already sees you as more spiritual than he is. To have that rubbed in his face more is not helpful.
        If you can get back to the place where you began with Jesus that place of saying, “God be merciful to me, the sinner;” if you live in the reality that your sin is just as heinous in God's eyes as your husband's is; if you really wrap yourself around the Cross of Jesus Christ where that blood was shed for your sin and you live in the reality of the power of that forgiveness, that gets communicated. If you're living in that yourself, you don't even have to say words, it's just what's coming out of your life as a person. You and your husband are on a level playing field at the Cross because you both are sinners. That is the thing that wives need to constantly remind themselves of, that they need Jesus just as much as their husband does. They need to realize that maybe they would have committed the same sins under different circumstances. It’s that kind of a heart, the heart of a tax collector. I know that that level of humility and reality is pleasing to God, and God honors that in a wife. That is one of the ways that a woman can really be supportive and helpful to her husband.

We're taking a break from our series, Babylon: The Seat of Satan's Power, this week. In this replay from our "Exposed" series, we look at what allows pride to flourish and grow inside us. We’ll look at life in America and examine the ways it encourages us to be proud. We’ll also talk about trials in marriage and how they can foster our pride in unexpected ways. Both topics will help us see more clearly the way God deals with pride and the consequences of its unchecked influence.

Resources

• i: The Root of Sin Exposed (Book) By Steve Gallagher

Nimrod’s name is only mentioned four times in the entire Bible, yet his legacy is infamous. First Chronicles 1:10 credits him as the first mighty world ruler, garnering the attention and admiration of all the people on the planet. Under his irascible and warlike leadership, he was able to leverage the people’s devotion and begin the construction of the Tower of Babel, the premiere symbol of rebellion against Yahweh. Only 2 generations separated him from godly Noah, and yet he able to amass a cult following of defiant souls in rebellion against the Lord.

In our fourth installment of Babylon: The Seat of Satan’s Power, Steve Gallagher helps us see how the spirit of antichrist in Nimrod was able to accomplish such a horrific achievement, and how that same spirit continues to amass power and influence in the 21st century.

Resources

This series is based on the book Intoxicated with Babylon: The Seduction of God’s People in the Last Days by Steve Gallagher. You can find out more about that book by visiting our bookstore.

Can God love someone like me? Does this question ever trouble you? Perhaps it comes up in those quiet moments when you’re all alone. Maybe there was a time—in your childhood years perhaps—when you could believe that God really did love you. But that was… before thoughts of God were overrun by the alluring pleasures and entertainments or athletic ambitions the world offered you… before the molestation… before that first sexual tryst in high school or college… before the abortion… before pornography became an obsession… before secret sin took over and began to dominate your life… before you crossed lines and engaged in things you swore you’d never do. Whatever IT was that happened, it’s now a mountain between you and God. If He ever loved you, it seems impossible to believe He could now.

A Personal Conflict

I remember all too well being in that place. My carefully constructed life was demolished in quick fashion when my secret sexual behaviors came to light. I lost my job in ministry, lost my treasured pristine reputation, severely damaged my marriage and wound up exiled to a program for sexual addicts in rural Kentucky. I wasn’t just lost; I was a 38-year-old Loser at the lowest point of my life. Years of self-love had left me hardened outwardly and hollow inwardly.

One day, shortly after my unceremonious arrival at the Pure Life Ministries Residential Program, I took a walk out on the ridge, to the place where a hand-hewn wooden cross stands amidst a small grove of cedar trees, and sat down on the bench overlooking the cross. I began to pray. I told God how miserable and wretched I was. I confessed sexual sins, sins of deception, sins against others, sins against Him, sins too shameful to speak of here. I told Him how wrong I was; how sad I was; how lonely I was; how I felt like a failure my whole life; how nobody really loved me and I couldn’t blame them.

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I lost track of time but I’m sure I spent at least 30 minutes babbling on and on, admitting to God precisely how disgusting, vile and wretched I was. At some point, a vague memory of some preacher saying I shouldn’t do all the talking but should allow God opportunity to speak when I’m praying came to mind. So I paused in pouring out my heart to God and said, “Sorry Lord; I’ve been doing all the talking.” (In my thinking, this was just one more failure to add to the list.) “Do You have anything You want to say to me?”

It’s hard to put into words what happened when I asked that question. But somehow, I felt—in a very literal way—the arms of God Himself draw me into a hugging embrace, and I heard Him say with perfect clarity in my heart, “I love you.”

That was it for me. He won my heart. I had just spent a good half-hour or more telling the Lord all the reasons why no one could possibly love me, why He shouldn’t love me or even have anything to do with me. And how did He respond? What did He want to say to me about all of this? “I love you.”

Friend, that’s what He wanted me to know above all else. To be sure, He fully intended to deal with my sin, my selfishness, my pride and self-righteousness, my unfaithfulness, my utter lack of respect for His Word. But first, I needed to know a very, very vital piece of the puzzle that I had long been overlooking: He loves me.

Because of God's Love...

There’s a story in Genesis that helps to make the love of God come alive for me. Perhaps you remember how Jacob deceived Isaac and stole his brother’s inheritance, then fled to the distant home of his mother’s relatives. In exile, Jacob wound up agreeing to tend the flocks of his Uncle Laban. He also happened to fall in love with Rachel, Laban’s younger daughter. Soon enough, the arrangement was made that he would work for Laban for seven years, at the end of which time Rachel would become his wife. Here’s how the Scriptures summarize Jacob’s years of toil: “So Jacob served seven years for Rachel, and they seemed only a few days to him because of the love he had for her.” (Genesis 29:20)

Wow! “…and they seemed only a few days to him because of the love he had for her.” Can you imagine love like that?

There are two sides to consider from this profound statement about love.

Our Love for God

While it’s easy to sing “I love you Lord” while participating in the congregational hymns and worship songs of the church, and perhaps even to utter the words in prayer now and again, the truth for most of us is that we do not love God—at least, not like we ought to. Not like Jacob loved Rachel. If we did, then years of serving Him would seem as nothing more than a few days to us. He would truly be the center of our affections. Doing what we know would be pleasing to Him, wouldn’t be such a struggle. Obeying Him wouldn’t seem burdensome or restrictive. It would be exhilarating!

If you spent time studying Scripture about what it means to truly love God, you just might discover that your love for Him is pretty weak and superficial. If that is the case, the best response is to begin by confessing the truth to God. Be honest. Be sincere. Pour your heart out to Him. He can handle the truth. And He can help you change.

God's Love for Us

There’s another side to this divine portrait of love between Jacob and Rachel. This passage also provides great insight into the Father’s love. God does love you. What if it meant serving seven years for you? Would He do it? Yes, He’s willing. And He proved it by coming as the Servant-of-All for us. (Mark 10:44-45) Would He serve seven years? I suspect He would serve seventy-times-seven years. In fact, He would give His whole life. He did give His whole life: “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16) Let these familiar words become full of new meaning to you.

For thousands of years, thick spiritual darkness covered the entire world. The prince of darkness, Satan, longed for the day when he would once again unite the globe in open rebellion to God's authority. But one day, 120 men and women left an upper room in Jerusalem with a fiery zeal and a white hot love for Jesus of Nazareth - the man who had changed everything about their lives. Their passion and their testimonies were infectious and began plundering the kingdom of darkness of its subjects daily.

When God's people are inflamed with love for Jesus and a zeal for His Kingdom, Satan's master plan for humanity is presented with a massive threat. But the enemy won't go down without a fight. In this show, we'll look at one of his most effective counterattacks - fostering a church culture that is full of apathy.

Resources

• Intoxicated with Babylon (Book) by Steve Gallagher
• Why Spiritual Growth Matters (Article) by Steve Gallagher

Can the seed of wickedness, rebellion and perversion truly reside in the heart of someone nurtured in a good environment and surrounded by godly examples? Scripture warns us that it can.

We see this clearly in Noah’s son, Ham. He grew up surrounded by the godly influence of his father, and even witnessed sin’s terrifying consequences firsthand in the destruction of mankind in the flood. But despite this, his heart was not set on the Lord like Noah. Ham’s moral character was not something internal, but something based upon his circumstances.

This is a story we’ve seen played out countless times in the men who come to us for counseling. A young man is raised in a godly home. He grows up attending a good church, hearing truth. But eventually he grows up and leaves his family’s protection. Soon, he finds himself allured by worldliness and entangled in sin. This is a tragic reality, but one which can be rectified.

In this interview, we sit down with Vice President of Discipleship Programs, Ed Buch, and look into different scenarios that can lead someone to believe they are walking in freedom, when in reality are allowing sin to remain untouched and flourishing in their heart. For anyone ensnared by sexual addiction, this video will help you see how you ended up in such a bad place, and how to find your way back out.

Resources

This series is based on the book Intoxicated with Babylon: The Seduction of God’s People in the Last Days by Steve Gallagher. You can find out more about that book by visiting our bookstore.

What is your opinion about homosexuality, sex, and nudity in movies?

There is no question that we as a people have fallen from the decency that once prevailed in our nation. That is the point of my book: How America Lost Her Innocence. Today, it is no longer decency that is the norm but indecency.

Having said that, I would like to address a larger, and what I consider to be a much more important, issue: the need for Christians to be very careful to limit how much they subject themselves to the ungodly influences of television and movies. Nearly everything on television and in movies caters to the flesh. How does it affect a believer to subject himself to hours of carnal programming? Watching a limited amount of cartoon movies, documentaries and sports will not adversely affect a believer too much. But in my opinion, believers should not be subjecting themselves to carnal sitcoms, dramas and movies.

Solomon rightly said, “Watch over your heart with all diligence because from it flow the issues of life.” The heart is the core of the human being and is affected by outside influences. Like a computer hard drive, what is programmed into it determines what kind of data comes out of it. Think of your heart as a seedbed, out of which our thoughts spring. Jesus said, “For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts…” (Mark 7:21 NASB)

The heart is affected through the senses, and, in turn, generates thoughts. A person’s thinking establishes the basis for his actions. His actions become a lifestyle. A lifestyle determines a person’s destiny. As you can see, it is very important to guard one’s heart.

After the flood Noah and his family exited the ark with a clear vision of God’s judgment upon evil. And as they began the toilsome work of rebuilding humanity, they would undoubtedly tell their story to succeeding generations in hopes that another worldwide devastation would be avoided.

But sin will not easily be eradicated from our hearts. Even the terror of divine retribution can be quickly forgotten by the enticement of sin’s promises. Scripture tells us that evil is always lurking, waiting for its chance to be revealed.

One day the ultimate human expression of evil will reveal itself in The Antichrist. Throughout history, many precursors to this man – many “antichrists” – have risen and fallen. What connects them all is a spiritual lineage that can be traced back to that little band of survivors who exited the ark at the dawn of man’s second genesis.

Resources

This series is based on the book Intoxicated with Babylon: The Seduction of God’s People in the Last Days by Steve Gallagher. You can find out more about that book by visiting our bookstore.

Every day, as we trust and obey our Heavenly Father, we are being transformed into the image of Jesus. God can use many things to do this, but often those things can be painful circumstances and trials in our lives. This is the message Kathy Gallagher has shared with many wives who have come to us devastated and broken by their husband’s betrayal. In part two of an interview with her, she shares more about this, from her experience and knowledge of the Word of God.

Nate: Today, I’d like to circle back to something that we touched on before. And that is that even though the Bible doesn’t have tons of specific instruction for wives, it does have a lot to say about being godly. Could you give some examples of that?

Kathy: It is very difficult to be a biblical wife. And I don't mean just a wife that professes to be a Christian, but a biblical wife. I'm still learning how to do that. My personality and the character traits that define me overall as a person fall so short of the ideal of what’s laid out in Scripture. The constant challenge for me is seeing my failure. I see my weakness as a wife, as a Christian and as a leader in this ministry. I see it all the time, but it also challenges me and ignites my desire to grow. Getting saved is just the beginning of this process. We are in the process of being saved. We get saved and we come into the Kingdom, but we are being saved, and we are coming out of the world's mindset. We've entered into a different Kingdom, and its principles and values are so vastly different than what we are used to. It's a painful process going from the Kingdom of Darkness into the Kingdom of Light. It's glorious in the beginning, but that journey is a painful, painful journey.
         You can easily separate yourself from the outward things of this world, but I find that the mindset of the spirit of this age is the hardest thing to overcome. For us women who have been so hurt by our husband’s sexual sin, our reaction to pain, suffering and injustice in our natural self is to retaliate, get mad, demand our rights and fight for our cause. But that’s exactly what the world does. When we act like that, we don't look much different than an unsaved woman who finds out her husband is in sexual sin. I don't mean to be pointing my finger condemning anybody for that reaction. That is totally a natural response. But if you look at Jesus’ life, it helps you come out of the world’s mindset, or at least see more clearly how the spirit of the world is trying to shape your thinking.

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        Jesus is our example and look at the attitudes He had to deal with in the disciples. In the Gospels you get a very clear picture of the worldly mindset that the disciples were in. But Jesus was showing them very patiently His interior world and what being His follower should look like. The humility and lowliness of His heart is the antithesis of the spirit of this world. That's where we get off track as women. One of the main characteristics of a godly Christian, whether you are a woman or man, is humility. If we're not humble, it's hard to be broken, it's hard to repent and it's hard to forgive.
        You've got to start with humility. I think that's why Jesus made such a big deal about it. And He was Himself lowliness personified. Another essential trait found in a godly wife is gratitude, but the question can easily arise, how am I supposed to be grateful? Women may ask themselves how they can be grateful when their husband has just created such a big mess in the marriage. But we are told to be grateful in every circumstance in the New Testament, and that was written by someone who was under tremendous persecution and suffering.

Nate: Can we talk about some of the character traits that you mentioned related to godliness? Why is it that a woman has to learn to live in the spirit of forgiveness if she wants to be godly?

Kathy: Being godly means that we want to be like Jesus, correct? Well, that’s the spirit that He is always in. He doesn't stop forgiving. It's an atmosphere and it is a spirit. Let’s compare it to the spirit of gratitude for instance. You don't just have gratitude on Tuesdays and Thursdays. If you truly have gratitude, then you are just a grateful person. You develop and cultivate the fruits of the Spirit. You cultivate thankfulness, generosity or even selflessness. It's not something that you just automatically are full of when you get saved. In fact, initially, you don't get any of that. You get the Holy Spirit, but you even have to cultivate Him in your life. You don’t get everything you need to be godly immediately and then just live life on autopilot.
          Whoever said that being a Christian is for weaklings and that Christianity is a crutch is crazy. I don't know who came up with that idea, but that is the furthest thing from the truth. It takes a very noble character to learn to walk with God the right way. I am not inferring that I’m perfect either, because I fail constantly. But you have to cultivate the spirit of forgiveness, a humble heart, a thankful heart, a heart of gratitude and a prayerful spirit. As Christians, we are growing up into Christ, into the full measure and full stature of who He is. He is the model.

Nate: Yeah, I was actually talking to a guy the other day because he had a pretty rough night. He was in a lot of lust and he was confessing that to me. And he had actually completely resisted, but he just felt so wrong to even have those desires. I just asked him, “What do you think God is like towards you this morning,” because he felt so beaten down. Then I looked at him and I said, “I know He's proud because a year ago you were just giving into this kind of thing and now you're suffering through this struggle and fighting against your flesh and I know God is proud of you.”

Kathy: It's precious to God. That's why I love to hear that stuff. I mean I don't love to hear that he feels discouraged at the end of that battle, but it is through those struggles that Jesus is being formed in us. I really believe that about all the hardship, all the battles and all the struggles these women go through. My natural gifting is mercy. What I want to do is rescue. I want to get in there and I want to yank them out of this mess. I want to beat that sucker over the head for being so ugly to his wife. That's what I'm like. But what God is like and what He's looking for is the willingness to battle through the trials and not give over to how the flesh wants to respond.
          When I got saved, this is what was told to me. “Jesus is going to make all of your problems go away and your life is going to be awesome.” Not true! As soon as I came into the Kingdom, I got thrust into battle. I gave a message years ago on tested faith, because it is so precious to God that we are going through that process. The struggle is so valuable to Him. He sees it rightly, we don't. That's why He can say that it’s precious to Him.

Nate: Yeah. So, I guess with all of the things that you talked about such as gratitude, submission, forgiveness and respect. I guess the big takeaway for these women is that this isn't just going to be magically imparted to them. There has to be a pushing back against our fleshly tendencies. We must fight to have Jesus formed in us.

Kathy: Yes, and it's very discouraging. I know that a lot of young women will hear this that are raising children and are exhausted.  The thought of having to fight for a life in God in the midst of what they’re going through can be very discouraging. But I just want to leave this thought with whoever's listening that needs to hear this. If you're weak, struggling and not doing well spiritually, it's probably because you're not praying. I wish there was a different word. I wish I could use a different word than prayer, because that's become almost a dirty word in the church. I hate to say that, but that is how it is viewed. Women dismiss it and want something else to help them get through their trial. But I'm telling you, girls, it is the thing that will change the course of your life, your children's lives and probably your husband's life.

        You have to go into it believing, with a desire to understand what the Bible is saying. You know, we are so shallow with the Bible. But we need to read, study and pray about what God has said about prayer and about what He has given us through it. We have the Word of the living God, but it's become so common to us that it's cheap. Everyone is so quick to say, “Give me something else, something I can get ahold of.” Well, prayer IS the thing and that's all I have to give you. But it is the thing that you need. It is the very thing you need.
        If you are weak spiritually, or if you're falling down spiritually, it's due to the fact that you’re not praying. Prayer is where the Lord meets us. He comes to us in our times of prayer. It's not instant gratification necessarily. It builds you up over time. A reservoir is being built inside and you will see it if you give time and energy to it. But that's not even the goal. The goal is for God to transform you into the image of Christ. And he does do that. He absolutely does that.

Nate: Yea. You basically have just said throughout this entire interview that Christlikeness is the secret to a good marriage. But that is not all you are saying, because I think sometimes we can be really shallow. For example, we can think, “If I'm like Jesus, then I'll get everything that I want.” And I know that's not what you're saying because when you look at the life of Jesus, you realize that this man had such a perspective about what this life was for and where things were going. But His life, when you consider it in terms of results, was unfruitful from many people’s perspectives. He did all these amazing things for people and most of them just wrote him off. Once He didn't give them what they wanted, they turned against Him. Even His disciples were mostly clueless as to what He was really aiming at. When He rose from the dead, they weren’t even expecting it.

Kathy: Yeah, they were surprised.

Nate: Yeah, they were surprised because they didn't really believe. So in terms of results, His life was kind of a disappointment. But when you see it through the eyes of faith, you realize that something more eternal took place.

Kathy: Look at it over the last 2000 years. Look at all the fruit that has come out of His 33 years on Earth. Look at the fruit. But it has transpired over a very long period of time. God is not in a big old hurry. He is very loving. He's so patient. He's so humble, and He is looking at things from an eternal perspective.