What happens when a church culture loses a love for God Himself and replaces it with a focus on other things? Find out in this conversation between Nate Danser and Steve Gallagher. (from Purity for Life Episode #501 - Babylon: An Apathetic Church Culture)

Nate: Okay. So, Pastor Steve, you have said that a culture of apathy in the church creates an environment where the standard of Christian living becomes very different from what is laid out in Scripture. So, people feel like as long as they do some basic, outward good things, they are good to go. But I wanted to talk to you in this segment about what you experienced back in the 1970’s, because that was a time of revival when the church was very strong, healthy and passionate.
    You've mentioned at different times that the atmosphere in the church today is very different than it was then. I want to talk a little bit about some of the differences and how you've seen that affect people's lives. One of the things you've said is that people were very passionate about the things of God. What was it like to have a church culture where the general atmosphere was filled with a passion for God.

Steve: Well, I don't want to overstate it. The part of the church that I was involved in, which was the Pentecostal side of things, generally speaking, had a high level of passion. I don't know that it was true of the rest of the church because that's where my involvement was. And the Jesus movement came up out of Chuck Smith, David Wilkerson and Leonard Ravenhill. Those kinds of men are the ones the Lord used to really usher in the Jesus movement that I got saved into in 1970. So, there was such a difference in that movement as opposed to how things are now in the church.

 of course, a lot of it was that many of us were young and excited about the things of God. Especially those of us who were ex-drug addicts and came out of a lot of darkness. But I guess if I could just get it narrowed down to one thing that I can use as a comparison, back in those days I used to love Sunday night services because after the service was over, we would gather around the altar of the church and we would literally spend hours seeking the Lord. That was the norm. We would often have all night prayer times on Friday nights. We would pray for a couple hours and then go out witnessing to people. That was the kind of passion we had.

Fast forward all these years later and there's hardly any churches that even have Sunday night services. People are so uninterested. They are locked into things of the culture like television and the internet. They go to church on Sunday morning, but for the typical American Christian, there is not much passion for the things of God in their lives. There are people out there that still are really passionate for the Lord, but not at the level that there were in 1970.

Nate: Ok. So, you definitely have firsthand experience with the church then and the church now. And you have been watching decade after decade this passion declining. When you think about what contributed to that decline, are there things that really stand out to you as the big contributors?

Steve: What happened was when the Jesus movement swept through the church in the late sixties, early seventies, it brought a lot of youth who were excited about the things of God and that just created an overall enthusiasm. And out of that enthusiastic movement, Christianity became more popular in America. There was a real change. It went from being something that old people did to in the eighties when it became something that young people were involved in. So in the eighties, we saw a real change come over the evangelical movement. Mega churches started to proliferate across the country. Christian radio just really took off. There were shows that began then that are still going today and have held that level of success all these years.
    So, what happened was success came into the church and it really became the thing to look acceptable to the culture. So, the aspects of success, the size and the focus became shifted from godliness to talent. And as that change happened, there was a great diminishment in the passion, because over time the culture of the world began to mix in with the church. And it's really gone downhill since then. So, in my opinion, that is why that fire went out from the 1970’s.

Nate: Yeah. So, it's like the fire was there because people were pressing into God Himself. But then when the focus shifts to something else, you start kind of moving away and you just lose the passion.

Steve: Yeah, it's just success. I mean, that's what happened. The church became successful, and the culture started noticing the church. And it wasn't all negative attention like what it's mostly become now. Now there is vitriol aimed at the church. Back then it wasn't that way.

Nate: One of the things that you just touched on was that when you make something other than the pursuit of God the focus, then there is going to be some kind of negative consequence. There's going to be some kind of diminishment in your spiritual life. And one thing that Patrick and I were talking about in preparation for this interview is how easy it is to pursue a cause because there are so many good ones out there. Like abortion, or justice, or the need to have godly schooling and training for your kids. In a really wicked age, there are a lot of good causes to promote and to fight for. But then there's just the dangers that can come with it when you make that the thing that you're going to focus your whole life on. What do you see as being one of the main negative consequences of doing that?

Steve: Well, some of the causes you mentioned were not really going on in the eighties. The main causes back then with Christian activists were against abortion, against pornography and against the homosexual agenda. And because I was in the midst of starting a ministry to men in sexual sin, those issues became big for me as well. And it wasn't until later that I really could look back and see things in hindsight. You see, what was happening was there was a shift in church culture. In the seventies there was a lot of repentance going on. There were people really seeing their need to repent of their sins and to walk circumspectly with God. Meaning they were being very aware of their own tendencies to veer off or to get carnal or worldly.

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 By the time of the eighties, the shift that I could see happening was that Christian activists like Don Wildman and Jerry Falwell were creating a movement within the church, and it was taking the church with it. They were focused on these causes and basically what it amounted to was seeing the faults in the culture and focusing on the faults out there rather than people looking at their own hearts. I think that was one of the main reasons why the American church left its passion for God and was kind of displaced in part by those kind of things.

Nate: Ok, briefly, could you talk about what the connection is between why starting to always look outward reduces the passion for God?

Steve: Let me answer that question by referring to the Sermon on the Mount. How did Jesus open it?
    Blessed are the poor in spirit.
    Blessed are those who mourn.
    Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness.

Those were the foundational pieces that should be in place as people come into the kingdom. But those same components are vital for someone to maintain their life in the kingdom. That requires you to have a tremendous awareness of your own need before God.
     That is what it means to walk in repentance. And that was at some level very real in the seventies and into the eighties. But it started to change. And part of that change came from people looking at outward issues instead of looking inwardly at their own hearts. And I don't mean there should be morbid introspection and a total fixation on what's wrong with oneself. There is a healthy balance between having our eyes on God and on being aware of our own lack and our own need.

Nate: Ok. I have a thought pertaining to what you were talking about. You were saying that sometimes God sees something different in our inner life as we're fighting for these causes. We may be looking out and seeing all the problems in the world around us and God might see something going on in our hearts. That's basically what Jesus’s message to the church in Ephesus was all about in the Book of Revelation, because he saw their works and He said there was a lot of good there.

  For instance, they were not bearing with those who are evil. They were exposing false apostles. They were patiently enduring. They were bearing up for the sake of His name and not growing weary. But he also said to them that they had abandoned the love that they had at first. He even went as far as to say, “If you don't go back to where you were, I'm going to take your lamp stand away.” Why is maintaining our first love so important to Jesus?

Steve: Well, the whole point of Christianity is to enter that relationship with God to where we love Him and have a love relationship with Him. Which is different from religion. The Christian religion says, “Okay. I have all these do’s and don'ts” or “I'm supposed to go to church. I'm supposed to not do these things or go to these places.” That's religion. But Christianity is a spiritual life.

  It isn't just going to church. It is my spirit interacting with God's Spirit, and the connection between that interaction is love. It's my love for God that makes me want to interact with Him and makes me want to worship Him. And it's His love for me that wants to care for me and watch over my life and so on. That interaction between God and us is what it is all about. I know, for me personally, I started off with a passion for God, but it diminished over time and then it came back. I think that is pretty typical for someone on the right trajectory. They start off in that first love and then over time it kind of dissipates. But then it starts building up into a mature love.

  And that's what I can say, 40 to 50 years later for myself is that my love for God is so much stronger than it was 20 to 30 years ago, even though I felt more passionate than I do today. But it has matured into something that's real and it controls how I think and act. My love for the Lord is why I don't allow myself to lust and do the things I used to do. I don't have to beat myself into not doing the wrong thing because I don't want to do something that displeases the Lord. There's just a change that has gone on inside me. I'm just using myself as an example, but that I think is part of what has been missing in the Church. A real sincere love for the Lord.

We know that a marriage cannot survive when selfishness dominates the couple’s hearts and their home. But do we really believe that the opposite is also true–that a marriage will overflow with blessing when each spouse is giving their lives away for others? In episode 6 of Ashes to Beauty, Scott and Erin Wilson talk about why living "the mercy life" radically changed their marriage and became one of their greatest goals.

Resources

• From Ashes to Beauty (Book) by Jeff Colón

Proverbs 28:26  in the NKJV says, "He who trusts in his own heart is a fool, but whoever walks wisely will be delivered." In this interview, Nate sits down with Ed Buch to unpack this verse and how applying it to our lives can save us from having to learn the hard way from our mistakes. (from Purity for Life Episode #498 - Babylon: An Empire Aimed at Conquest)

Nate: OK. So, Pastor Ed. This is the second segment in a show where we are looking at how the enemy has infiltrated this world and how he is working to create a global mindset where he is fully in control of people's hearts and minds. And the thing I wanted to key in on in this interview was part of how he does that. Pastor Steve has said that many people spend their whole lives pursuing what brings them the most pleasure, and that they think they are in full control of their lives. But they don’t realize that they are being led by the hand to their destruction by the spirit of Babylon. And the reason that I wanted to key in on that is because if there is anything that defines American culture, it is the pursuit of pleasure. And so, what Pastor Steve is saying is that we can think that we're in full control because we're pursuing what pleases us. But in reality, we are being controlled by the spirit of the world and we're being led to destruction. What I’d like you to do for us is give some Scriptural support for that idea?

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Ed: Unfortunately, Nate, I think most of us find out the truth of what Pastor Steve is saying the hard way. One of the things we always must keep in mind about lust is that it is never satisfied. All of us have something that we're allured by and attracted to in the pleasure realm that's different for each person. We all have our little individual preferences and tastes, but there's something that we're pulled toward and most of us eventually find a way to experience it. Those things are not all necessarily even sinful, but many of them can really delve into sin very quickly for us.

  But the thing is that over time, the pleasure we're getting out of that experience fades. What once brought us a real thrill of pleasure now leaves us dissatisfied and craving for more and at a place where we internally feel like we have a need for this thing. And sometimes at that point, we'll go after a more powerful version of the thing that we've been pursuing or we'll seek out another form of pleasure altogether that is more powerful to us. But regardless, we're following our desire for pleasure and that self-centered pursuit of pleasure is leading us down a path. In 1 John 5:19 it says that the whole world lies under the sway of the evil one. Or as the NIV puts it, under the control of the evil one. So, when we're naively pursuing that worldly pleasure, we're actually immersing ourselves in that domain where evil prevails and in that domain our control is nothing more than an illusion.

  This is exactly what Paul was talking about in Romans 6 where he says that we are slaves to the one we present ourselves to. Whether that's sin leading to death or obedience leading to righteousness. We're all enslaved. We have a choice to make, but we'll be a slave to one or the other. So, whether we realize it or not, our pursuit of pleasure is increasingly enslaving us to sin and handing control over to the evil one in our life. And many of us end up enslaved to various forms of pleasure, sexual pleasure of course being predominant in our culture and in our ministry here. But here's the sad part of this Nate, even after whatever we’re chasing no longer gives us the pleasure we are seeking from it, we will continue to be driven by a desire for it. That is the place of misery and destruction that the evil one had in mind from the beginning.

Nate: Yeah. The thing that you said, or inferred I think is that as humans we're really never in control. The only control we have is who to give control to. Do we give it to Satan, or do we give it to God? Do we give it to righteousness or do we give it to sin? And that's the only choice we have. We don't have the choice of remaining in control of our own destination. We don't have the option of remaining in control of how our lives will turn out. So, it's very clear to me where we can be very self-deceived. We may think that we can make a decision and control the outcome, but that's not an option.

Ed: Not really. Once you make the choice of which path you’re taking, then the destination is settled for you.

Nate: Yeah. And let's bring in a Scripture here. The first part of Proverbs 28:26 says, “Whoever trusts his own heart is a fool.” How do you see a Scripture like that playing into this conversation?

Ed: Well, from a Biblical perspective, the heart that it's talking about is the seat of our desires. And of course, I think most of us would understand that we're born with a sin nature, which means all of those innate desires have been corrupted in some measure. So, I find myself literally cringing when I hear people say things like, “just follow your heart.” That is literally the exact opposite of what the Proverb says. You have a lot of movies, even Christian movies, that seem to really push this notion of following our hearts. But when it comes to what the Scriptures have to say about the heart, it's a scary reality in a sense. The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. If you really consider what it's saying, would you follow your heart? Would you willingly follow something that is deceitful above all things? Everything else is less deceitful than your own heart. Is that the path you are going to choose? And Jesus Himself said in Mark 7 that out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornication, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride and foolishness.

  That whole list of stuff comes out of someone's heart. So, I think that it's very clear in Scripture that the heart is the seat of our corruption. It's full of corrupt desires and it's easily swayed by untrustworthy emotions as well. So, Scripture really has a dual thing that it teaches us against following our hearts. And I think you could even say that every sin a person ever commits started in their heart. So, if we follow our hearts, we're just literally playing right into Satan's hands. We're doing exactly what he wants us to do. And we're a fool like that Proverb said because we have been warned over and over in Scripture not to do that.

Nate: Yeah. And I think that if anybody would just take an honest look and survey their past, they will see that we all naturally trust our hearts. We don't have to be told to trust our hearts. We don't have to be encouraged to do it. We just do it.

Ed: We want to be deceived I think is part of what's going on there because we really just want what we want. Deceiving ourselves in order to go after what we want is something that us as fallen human beings are willing to do.

Nate: Yea. So, then the other half of Proverbs 28:26 says, “He who walks in wisdom will be delivered.” We obviously really need this because like you said, in so many situations in our lives the only thing that really seems to get through to us is the pain of our horrible decisions. Who really wants to spend the rest of their lives only learning from complete disaster and failure. So the solution to avoiding that is to grow in wisdom. What is wisdom?

Ed: Well, I saw you were going to ask me that question today, so I took the liberty of looking it up on the dictionary app on my phone. And one of the definitions that it gave me was “Scholarly knowledge or learning.” That's what we might call human wisdom and the Bible does use the word wisdom that way a couple of times. For example, in Acts 7:22 it says Moses was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians and was mighty in words and deed. That kind of human wisdom is occasionally being referenced, but it's usually pretty clear by the context that it's not the same as godly wisdom. I think of it as wisdom with a small “w”. Now contrast that with the godly attribute of Wisdom that you might think of as Wisdom with a capital “W”.

  So, one of the other definitions really gets more at the godly attribute of Wisdom. It says that Wisdom is the knowledge of what is true or right coupled with the just judgment as to action. Now that's a mouthful. But in simple terms, it's knowing what's true and right, and then acting according to that. And I think that's a lot closer to what the Bible has in mind when it speaks of Wisdom. I'll throw another definition in here as well. Years ago, I ran across another definition of wisdom from a ministry website and I jotted it down. It said that Wisdom is seeing and responding to life's situations from God's frame of reference. I think that is a very practical and helpful definition of Wisdom.

Nate: Yeah, that is definitely what we need because like you said, Wisdom is the knowledge of what is right and true coupled with just judgment about the action. And sometimes we don't see the situation at all for what it really is. Sometimes we do see the situation for what it is, but we don't act in a way that is going to get us through. It's like the verse that says, “The prudent sees danger and hides himself, but the simple go on and suffer for it.” (Proverbs 22:3, ESV) We do that a lot. Our desires are really deceptive and they're really powerful. Another verse that I thought about that shows us our total need of the Lord even in this whole realm of learning to walk in Wisdom is that Wisdom begins with the fear of the Lord. Why is that?

Ed: Well, first of all, I think most Christians can probably quote that part of the verse by heart from Proverbs. But I find that most people don't have much of an understanding of what the fear of the Lord really is or even a sense of their true need for fearing the Lord. The way I see it, a healthy fear of the Lord is rooted in His role as judge. The Bible of course teaches us that everyone is going to be judged one day. It's right there in 2 Corinthians 5:10. It says, “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.” (2 Cor 5:10, NKJV) We're all going to appear before that judgment seat and Jesus told us that we shouldn't fear those who can only kill the body but can't do anything to our soul. He says, “rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Hell.” Of course, the latter is referring to God. We should fear the Lord.

  So, Wisdom is simply living in the reality that my eternity is much more important than my present. I'm going to be judged and there's going to be an eternity that follows that judgment that is either going to be very good or very bad for me. When I live with that kind of perspective ever in front of me, then I'm living by Wisdom. So, that includes denying myself worldly pleasures right now and taking every thought captive. That means storing up my treasure in heaven instead of on the earth and focusing on my spiritual growth. That means developing the mind of Christ and prioritizing my relationship with my Heavenly Father. Those are all the things that result when someone's living according to Wisdom in their life. And if I live today with the intent of being in the right place spiritually, when I get to that place of judgment before Christ then I've allowed my healthy fear of the Lord to steer me down the right path of Wisdom. I won't be living in sin with the fear of being punished, but rather I'll be living in obedience with the expectation of receiving the reward that comes for that.

If a couple who were in real trouble asked you what it would take to restore their lives and their marriage, what would you tell them? Would you tell them they both really need a desperate desire for righteousness? In episode five of our series Ashes to Beauty, Shawn and Susan Smith talk about why becoming hungry for righteousness made such a huge difference in their own lives and marriage.

Resources

• From Ashes to Beauty (Book) by Jeff Colón

Have you ever sought counsel for something and the person giving you counsel starts touching on something that you think is totally unrelated to your problem? For example, you want help with your addiction to sexual sin and they start talking to you about your relationship with God, your ingratitude, fear, worry, or even your perfectionism. In this episode we discuss some of the spiritual issues that a person must deal with if he or she is looking to find freedom from sexual sin.

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Want to learn how to overcome temptation? Then check out this episode. We'll look at James 1:12-15, where the apostle left us priceless wisdom on the nature of temptation, so that we can learn how to handle temptation in a way that brings life.

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In the fourth episode of Ashes to Beauty: Scott and Erin Wilson’s world blew apart in one day when Erin found texts from another woman on Scott's phone. For the next couple of years, they tried to fix their marriage--in their own way and their own strength. Eventually, they both came to the place where they were willing to do the will of God. That’s when their marriage began to be restored.

Resources

• From Ashes to Beauty (Book) by Jeff Colón

In the newest episode of Ashes to Beauty: When our hearts are torn open, we frantically reach for anything that will take away the pain. But what if God showed up in our suffering and told us that our pain was actually opening the door to tremendous blessing? Even though that makes no sense to our natural minds, that's exactly what He means when He says, "Blessed are those who mourn."

Resources

• From Ashes to Beauty (Book) by Jeff Colón
• A Biblical Perspective on Brokenness (Article) by Jim Lewis

This week's blog post features part of a discussion between Nate and biblical counselor Ken Larkin on 1 John 2:15-17. We would encourage you to take a moment if you can to read and meditate on this passage before reading this interview. (from Purity for Life Episode #497 - Babylon: The Global Mindset of Kosmos)

Nate: OK so for anyone who's listening, basically, what I asked my guest, Ken, to do was to spend some time studying 1 John 2:15-17 and I would do the same. Then we would just come in and talk about it. So, I'm not sure how this is going to go. You have notes and I have notes, and this will be completely free flowing. So, let me just read the passage and then I'll open it up to you and you can just give some initial thoughts. This is from the ESV.

      “Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride of life—is not from the Father but is from the world. And the world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God abides forever.”

So, I'll just open it up to you for something that jumped out to you that you want to share.

Ken: Yeah. One of the first things that really jumped out to me is the fact that a lot of times when I'm thinking of worldliness in general, I'm thinking of outward things and what I'm doing outwardly. But one’s behavior is just fruit of where their heart is anyway. So, John is actually talking about a heart posture here. Love not the world. And then he goes on to say what the things of the world are. Those are actually heart issues and your outward lifestyle is going to be indicative of where your heart is.

Nate: Ok. So, sometimes when we think about worldliness, we're trying to figure out, what things can I do and what things can I not do. But you're saying that when you read this passage, it's not so much about the external things, it's the internal things. When I studied this passage, what was interesting to me was when he says, “Do not love the world,” it gets you in the mindset of asking, “what is the world?” But he uses the phrase later in verse 16, “For all that is in the world.” And then he talks about lust and pride and that's just very interesting to me. He's not talking about systems. He's not talking about activities. He's saying everything in the world. Lust and pride. This is what you can't devote your life to. When it says do not love the world, that's the Greek word agape, which in this context is meaning the ruling passion of your life.

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Ken: Yeah. And he's telling us that because the world caters to those things. Everything around us is moving in that direction and if we're not separate, then we're going to be in that same flow.

Nate: Can you describe that flow? What are you talking about when you say that?

Ken: It is the flow of living to satisfy self. To fulfill the desires of the flesh. I looked “fulfilling the desires of the flesh” up in the original language and it was talking about animalistic appetites. And this same usage is used in referring to the lust for physical pleasure or even overindulging in gluttony or getting drunk. Then moving on from those physical lusts, there is the lust of the eyes. Even this sort of lust can still lend itself to sexual lust, but it could also just be a coveting spirit. That could be even just materialism and wanting things. And then there is the pride of life where your heart posture is basically exalting yourself. Whether it's a position or your possessions and it's always in comparison to other people and it comes down to a worldly mentality of wanting to be on top. So, if your life is being devoted to those things, no matter how much you go to church and no matter how much you look to be a godly or a moral individual, you're actually worldly.

Nate: Yeah, I think that can be a challenge to really come to grips with. That if what I'm doing is coming from a selfish motive, then that's what God sees. It’s not as if God is looking to see if we did more good than we did bad. He is not looking and saying, “I see that you're doing, A, B, and C, which is not good, but look at all the good stuff you're doing. You are going to church. You’re an elder. You’re a worship leader.” Doing those good things doesn’t mean that God just overlooks the bad stuff. That’s not the truth of the matter. And it can take some courage to come to grips with the fact that what the Lord is looking at is the heart and even the best things we do can be flowing from a selfish and self-centered motive.

       It should give all of us a pause to say, “Wow. Why do I do what I do?” Because if the world is all about the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and the pride of life, we could be doing a bunch of good things and it could be coming from those desires. Because if the desire of the eyes is really about seeing something and wanting it, that could be anything. That could be a position at the church I see open that I want and I'm going after it. That could be I see people's approval and I want that and I'm going after it. That could be, I'm a small group leader and people look up to me and now I'm boasting about it. That's the pride of life. I mean, these things just dig way deep into our lives and that's what John is saying. We can't be devoted to things that lend themselves to the love of the world. The Word of God really does cut like a two-edged sword right into the heart to find out what's really going on. What else did you see?

Ken: One of the things I would say is Jesus said, “where your treasure is there will your heart be also.” And I thought about the direction of one’s life. What are they really seeking after? What's most important to them? So, even though it is a heart issue, what they’re doing on a daily basis will show them where their heart is. If someone is just glutting themselves with entertainment, then obviously that's a sign that they're not seeking first the Kingdom of God.

       I thought about a more blatant example of this. Think of someone who doesn't claim to know the Lord or maybe they are a nominal Christian and they're not even living a godly life, but they're doing all these humanitarian things. That doesn't mean they are godly just because they’re doing something right. The general tenor of their life is flowing away from God and toward the world. There is an obvious danger in loving the world and its immorality. Why would he command us not to love the world if there wasn't a danger that even Christians could fall into that.

       And it is a commandment. It isn’t just a suggestion. He says blatantly, “love not the world.” And then I thought it was interesting that he even ended this epistle with, “Little children, keep yourself from idols.” So, just the whole idea of what's fueling the direction of your life is where your treasure is. Is there an idol in your life? Is there something worldly? Even if it's just simply a position. It doesn't have to be all the trappings of the world like a new car or a new house. It could just be desiring to promote yourself to be the best at something and to elevate yourself above others. To have power or prestige or just like you said, to look good or to be pleasing to people, but it's still promoting yourself.

Sexual sin is like a hurricane of evil, and the overwhelming devastation can make it seem like there's no hope for the marriage. But in God's powerful hands, the sense of our total neediness actually becomes the first step on the road to redemption. That's what we'll talk about in episode two of our series Ashes to Beauty.

Resources

• From Ashes to Beauty (Book) by Jeff Colón

It’s easy to deceive ourselves about where we are at in terms of sexual purity. This can be especially true for those who don’t believe they’ve gone as far as others who have sinned worse than they have. But as Nate and Ed Buch discuss in today’s interview, not only is this attitude very wrong, but it can allow the enemy a foothold into our lives that can take us further than we could ever imagine. (from Purity for Life Episode #494 - Babylon: Evil Seed on Noah's Ark)

Nate: In this interview, I want to key in on a different types of people and speak to them so that they can see what it means to live in victory. The first one I thought of was a young person growing up in a pretty conservative home. Their parents are really creating a protective barrier around them. So, they're not going to have access to promiscuity or pornography or sensual imagery on the television. But if they're indulging in fantasy or even self-gratification, what's the danger here for that person?

Ed: From my perspective, the danger is the lies that he's believing. He believes essentially that he's not that bad and that others are doing much worse. He's aware of some of the things that others are doing, and he believes that he's fine because he's not doing what they're doing. But he's still feeding his flesh and indulging in some forms of sexual sin in this scenario that you've created. And he's still walking in the wrong direction. Even if his steps are very slow and measured in that direction, he's still headed in the wrong direction.

   He even likely believes that masturbation isn't a sin. So that would be another lie that he's believing because God is not OK with masturbation as a lot of people want to believe. Every sin is a sin that we need to repent of fully and let only the blood of Jesus cover. This man can't escape the need to repent for his sins. Even if he doesn't feel like it is sin, it still is. And if he's not broken and repentant over these kinds of indulgences, eventually they're going to lead him into the place where he wants more and more. Where he feels the need to go further and deeper into sin. He's eventually going to want something more sensuous, more graphic and more real – even perhaps to feed the sexual sin in his life and the habits that he's formed.

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    The old saying is so true that says, “Lust will take you further than you intended to go, it will keep you longer than you intended to stay and it will cost you more than you intended to pay.” We treat that unfortunately like it's a tired old cliche because it's been around for years and talked about and used in many contexts. This has led those words to no longer have the kind of alarm for us that they should. Lust is a dangerous thing that takes us further and keeps us longer and costs us more than we reckon for. And a man indulging in any type of lustful behavior is going to have to deal with that at some point and really take hold of the truth about the lust in his heart.

    What's going to happen when he leaves his home environment that has strict boundaries, where a lack of opportunity was primarily keeping him from going further. Believe me, we've counseled a lot of young men in both the Overcomers at Home Program and the Residential Program that come out of those kinds of settings. And then they went off to Bible College or they got into a serious dating relationship and suddenly all this lust that had lain dormant in their heart unchecked for years, suddenly starts to emerge, and shows up in various ways and leads to deeper forms of sin.

Nate: Yeah. While you were talking, I was thinking about how many times I've heard in one of our graduation speeches from our Residential Program, “And then I went off to college,” or, “And then I went into the army.” And then all of a sudden, all the barriers that they thought they had in their life and the control they thought they had is all gone. And then years in the future they finally are coming to their senses. That's horrible.

   Let’s move on to the second scenario that I thought about where a young man or young woman have already indulged in sexual sin, but then they realize they don't want to live like that anymore. So, they put a bunch of safeguards in place like internet filters and accountability. Maybe they let somebody track their location on their phone and they are making gains in terms of overcoming the outward sin. They're not looking at pornography and they're not going to strip clubs. But maybe what’s really going on in their heart is waiting for a new set of circumstances to bring out what’s been lying dormant for years inside of them. What are warning signs that these people could look for that would say, whoa I'm not actually dealing with my heart, and this is going to come back around at some point?

Ed: I think there are probably a number of diagnostic questions that I would want to ask that person if I'm counseling them or they can ask themselves even. How are they really doing? In other words, how effective are these safeguards that they have put in place? Are they really working? Is this person testing all of the boundaries and trying to get past the safeguards or are they kind of just in the background holding them accountable? And if the person ends up at a hotel room or a relative's house where some of those same safeguards don't necessarily exist, what happens there? Are they being kept from their sin in those scenarios? Do they have intense struggles, or do they give over to their sin in some way when they see an open opportunity?

  Answering these questions themselves will tell this person where their heart is at. Do they have victory over self-gratification? I think that's really a good barometer generally speaking of where someone's really at in terms of victory. It's not foolproof, but it'll tell them a lot, especially if they are giving over to their sin to some degree that their heart really isn't where they would like it to be or where it needs to be. On the other side of things, some of the questions would be, have they replaced sexual sin with some other unhealthy behavior? Maybe chasing after comfort foods or overindulging in some hobby that they really enjoy. When they are watching television or movies do they gravitate toward a particular kind of movie that might help stir or stimulate sensuality or fleshly behavior?

  In biblical counseling we speak of the need to pursue the putting off of our sinful behaviors. We talk about a need to renew our mind and bring it into agreement and alignment with the Word of God and we need to put on godly behaviors that take the place of those sinful behaviors. So, when I hear you talk about someone who is the way you described at the outset, it sounds like he or she has done a good job putting off the outward behaviors of sin. But where are they at in terms of the actual renewing of the mind or the putting on process? Because that has to be part of it.

  Is there any evidence that the Word of God is actually changing the way they think about sexual sin in general? It has to be something more than just God says I can't do it, because that won't keep any of us. In fact, that only seems to stir us and make us want it more, right? So, that's never going to be enough given the way that we're wired. We have to better understand why God sets the standards and boundaries that He does and we have to ultimately come into an agreement in our mind and our heart that sexual purity is better than sexual immorality. So, I would look for some kind of evidence of that in terms of dealing with where they are at in their heart.

  As far as the putting on process, I look at what this person does with their idle time. Does any of it go to the Lord? Is there a tug inside of them that is drawing them to invest in their relationship with the Lord at all? What does he or she seek out for pleasure? How much of the world's sensuality and carnal pleasure is this person really exposing themselves to? What efforts are there in really investing in a relationship with the Lord? How much time and effort goes into studying the Bible? One of the keys to me in this area would be what their prayer life is like. How long is it? Is it consistent? Is this person spending time in dedicated prayer every day? And do their personal issues take up all that prayer time or are they really spending the majority of it interceding for others? Those sorts of things tell us a lot about where a person's heart is. If a person is trying to measure where their heart is at or get a sense of whether they are in danger or if they are doing OK, the real question they have to ask themselves is if the pull towards sexual sin over time is increasing or decreasing. That should tell them whether they are really dealing with their heart issues or not.

For over 35 years, we have watched God do miracles in even the most hopeless of situations. If your marriage has been reduced to a pile of ashes, you won't want to miss our newest series. We'll talk to four different couples whose marriages were horribly damaged by sexual sin, but who walked God's pathway to restoration and found that He is truly able to take marriages from ashes to beauty.

Resources

• From Ashes to Beauty (Book) by Jeff Colón