According to modern church culture, to be saved means that you believe some doctrines and go to church. But according to Scripture, to be saved means that your life has been revolutionized from the inside out so that you love and obey God from the heart.

Host: Steve Gallagher has joined me in the studio. Steve is the founder of Pure Life Ministries. Steve, it’s great to see you again. Thanks for coming in.

Steve: It's good to be with you.

Host: Steve, as we continue our discussions in your book “Standing Firm Through the Great Apostasy,” we want to talk today about Chapter 4: The Evidence of Faith. You said in the beginning of this chapter that for many years you thought the greatest problem in the Church today was a lack of discipleship, but you changed your perspective on that.

Steve: Yeah, I had a revelation one day. It occurred to me that the problem isn't a lack of discipleship. The problem is that pastors are killing themselves trying to disciple unconverted people into the Christian life. And that’s just not possible.

Host: You know, one of the problems we see in our churches today is that there is a salvation experience taught that really is nothing more than an intellectual assent to the historic Jesus. You make the point in your book that there should be some particular evidence of saving faith in the life of someone who has truly been converted. So, today we want to talk about the different evidences we should see. One of the first things that you brought up was a childlikeness. Talk a little bit about what you mean by that.

Steve: Well, that comes from Matthew 18, where Jesus makes the very clear statement, “Unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 18:3b, NASB 1995) That's pretty cut and dry. There is something about childlikeness that Jesus is saying is required for this entrance into the kingdom of heaven, and really the most pronounced quality of a child is their utter dependence upon their parents for life. That is the one quality about a child that stands out more than any other thing. They completely depend upon their parents for the sustenance of life.

Host: Now then, relate that to the individual believer. When someone comes into true faith, what are they shifting their dependence from and to?

Steve: They're shifting their dependence from self to God. That's the bottom line. A person with a spurious faith can believe all the right doctrines and have all the proper understanding of biblical teachings, but they have never transferred their true trust from themselves to God.

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Host: Steve, you also said that faith is proven by change in this chapter. And I know that in the Church in America, this is argued all the time. The question that arises a lot is, “Can I really have a true saving faith without having a changed life?”

Steve: Well, people tend to look at change as a change in their worldview. They've gone from a Pagan worldview to a maybe some kind of right-wing, Christian worldview. That's a mental change. A heart change is something different because a person’s perspectives, their values, everything changes. Not just in their belief system, but in the way they actually live their lives. And that change is reflected in a process which the Bible calls sanctification.

Host: Now, the great danger here that you point out is that someone can be in church and just naturally take on the characteristics of the people around them. But that heart change that you're talking about may never have taken place.

Steve: Yeah, because in the evangelical realm, there is a certain way of doing life. You're nice to each other. You don't cuss. You don’t pull out a cigarette and light it up in your pew. There are just certain unspoken rules that govern evangelical life. So you can basically fit yourself into that culture without having had an inward change of heart.

Host: When you think about it, the difference really is the motivation for changing. We're not changing because we're trying to keep some set of rules. We're changing out of our love for the Lord and our gratitude for what He's done for us. That kind of change is evidence of true faith.

Steve: And that kind of change is evidence that the Spirit of the living God is indwelling your heart, because we don't have it in our flesh to want to please God. We can have it in our flesh to want to obey rules and to want to fit in with the church culture we’re in. Or even to want to not stand out in the crowd, but we don't have it in ourselves to love God. Only the Spirit living in us can compel us to do that.

Host: And that really leads us to our next point, which is that faith is proven by obedience.

Steve: Yeah. And the point I made in the book, basically if I could sum it up this way is that in the dark ages, the pendulum had swung way over to the side of works. The Catholic Church had instituted a system of rules and rituals to earn your salvation by penance and obeying tradition. Then Martin Luther came along stood against salvation by works. And so, the protestant movement took on that mantra—and rightly so. But we've gone now to the other extreme. It was actually Martin Luther who coined a term that is so appropriate to what the Church is facing today.
       The term is “antinomianism”. “Anti” means against, and “nomos” is the law. So, those who embrace antinomianism are people who do not want to be constrained by biblical commandments. So, the opposite extreme of what the Catholics were pushing in the Dark Ages has become what we are facing in the church of the 21st century, which is the throwing off of all restraints put upon our lives and this feeling like we don't have to obey God. And the idea is that we should obey God for the most part, but we’re saved not by works but by faith. So, because of that fact, it really doesn't matter what we do.

Host: And yet that cuts so dramatically against what Jesus Himself said was evidence of love for Him.

Steve: Well, it's throughout all of Jesus’ teachings. He could not be clearer in saying that if you love me, you will obey my commandments.

Host: Yes, Amen. The last evidence that you gave is that you talked about the evidence of faith being proven by a person’s fruit.

Steve: Well again, I can refer directly to the words of Jesus. This is coming out of John 15, “He who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.” (John 15:5b, NASB 1995) And He goes on to say, “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.” (John 15:6, NASB 1995) And it is said in various other ways throughout the New Testament that fruit bearing is evidence of one’s faith.

Host: Steve, as you closed this chapter you shared the story of a man named Robert who came into the Pure Life Ministries Residential Program. That might be a great way to end this discussion today. Tell us that story.

Steve: Well, Robert is like a son to me. Robert came to us, having grown up in an evangelical church and by the time he came to us, he had just attempted suicide. He was on several psychotropic drugs. He weighed 500 lbs. He was in uncontrolled homosexual behavior. And when he went and confessed to his pastor about all his struggles, his pastor's solution was to make him a Deacon of the church. And that threw him into more hopelessness and despair, which is actually when he tried committing suicide. So, then somehow he found out about Pure Life and when he came to us, it would be hard to have found a more hopeless person than Robert walking this campus. And yet, because there was something inside him, a sincere desire to really have the Lord, Robert started responding to the Holy Spirit. And little by little, God started transforming his inward life. And pretty soon the pounds were flying off of him. He lost 200 lbs. while he was in the program. And you know, Robert’s life is a glowing testimony of someone who obeyed God and the fruit that will come out of that obedience.

Host: And we see that replicated in many of the lives of men who come to us, and we see it throughout the true Church of God. Where there is true faith, we see real evidence of genuine faith in their lives.

Steve: I see it all over America. You see people who have really come to the Lord. They just stand out and it's such a blessing.