How Do You Counsel a Leader in Sexual Sin?
The task of offering counsel to a Christian leader who has fallen into sexual sin may seem very daunting. But it doesn't have to be this way. Pure Life Ministries Assistant Director of Counseling, Jordan Yoshimine, shares some of the wisdom he has gleaned from counseling pastors in sexual sin.
Brooks: All right Jordan, here at Pure Life we often have men come to us for counseling who were pastors or in full-time Christian work. I know you yourself were a church leader before you went through our Residential Program. What is it like counseling a pastor in sexual sin? Is it different than counseling anyone struggling with sexual sin?
Jordan: Actually, not really. You would think that there would be some differences in how you counsel but, Romans 3:23 says, "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." Romans 3:4 and Psalm 14 say, "There is no one good, no not one. So we're all in the same boat, every single one of us. Every single person on this planet is sinful by nature and needs a Savior and needs Jesus to be their Lord. So, when people step into the counseling office, I just see them as another person in need to really know Jesus as Lord.
Brooks: Ok, so you're using the Bible to give them the same truth as other men you counsel, but what are some specific challenges that come up when you're trying to counsel a leader?
Jordan: I think the main challenge for pastors, really for anyone, but specifically for pastors or those who've been in full time Christian work for any length, is that they see themselves as Christians with a small little problem. They see their ministry work and their years or even decades of Christian service as something that they can store up and bring into the counseling office and say, "Hey, I've been a pastor for 40 years," or, "I've been a worship leader for 10 years," or, "I've served in many different capacities." And I just take them to Galatians 5:16-21 or the parable of the sower and the seed in Matthew 13. I'll take them to John 15:2 and just help them to examine themselves and where they're at spiritually. Matthew 23 is another great example. Jesus calls out the Pharisees for being clean on the outside, but full of dead men's bones inside." So, I guess my main point is that many times the specific challenge we have with pastors is that they come in with a preconceived notion that they're somewhere they're not. They still see themselves as high-level Christians. But they haven't taken the time to really examine themselves.
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Brooks: Is it intimidating to counsel a pastor? I know you were in ministry, but what's that dynamic like.
Jordan: Several years ago, when I started counseling, I would have said yes because I was unsure of my footing as a biblical counselor. But now, absolutely not. I don't care. If a person walks in my office I see a person in need. The Lord has put us together, ordained it and orchestrated events for us to spend 9 months together and so no I feel like it's my calling to speak truth into whoever sits a cross for me in my office.
Brooks: Well, thinking about what you're actually telling someone coming out of ministry I want to ask simply, what do you tell them? I would think a lot of times they know the Bible and some of the things that you probably bring up, maybe even better than you do.
Jordan: Yeah. In fact, I even use that in counseling, especially when I see they have a lot of degrees and titles behind their name. And one of the first things I ask these men is "You seem to know the Bible. You've done a lot of studying about the Word of God and yet, you're still here in this program. So, where did the Word of God and the all that knowledge get you?" I want to kind of help them see and help them really question where they really are at. That's kind of the bottom line. Those first couple weeks or months in counseling is to get them to see that they're not where they think they are spiritually. So yeah, I mean we'll just go back to scripture and go over John 15. We'll go over Matthew 23. We'll go over Romans 1. We'll go over Galatians 5 and several other passages. I just had a counseling session with a gentleman who's been in ministry for almost 2 decades and when we read those passages he started weeping. It was like he was reading that for the first time. So, it's amazing when you actually get in this setting what the Lord can do and when the Holy Spirit comes in and breathes life into the Word where before it was something this man had read and something he knew, but there was no actual application to that in his own life and in his own heart.
Brooks: I'm sure you've seen all kinds of reactions from pastors or leaders that you're counseling. What are some of the extremes of how people take that, when they're hearing you question where they're at and hearing you teach them things they already know. How does that go? I imagine it goes differently each time.
Jordan: Yeah unfortunately, we can't drag people into a life with Christ or into a deeper walk or to return to their first love. We're never going to say, "You're not saved." We're going to provide the evidence in the Bible and go to Scriptures and let them decide for themselves where they're at. And at that point, some say, "No. I'm going to stay and believe what I believe and believe in my past." They're not willing to really let go and surrender all those years of service. It's unfortunate. I take them to Matthew 7, and I tell them people are going to get before Jesus - before the Lord - and before the Father and say, "Lord, Lord did we not do all these things?" And the Lord is going to say, "Depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness. Depart from Me, I never knew you." It's unfortunate that even when faced with all those Scriptures, people harden their hearts. They're exposed to so much truth in the counseling office and in our in our services and their homework. In just daily life in our Residential Program and even our Overcomers-at-Home Program their faced with truth. Unfortunately, a lot of times, people who have been in ministry just say no. They aren't willing to face reality. They aren't really willing to examine their heart. They want to stay in religion. That's the main thing. People don't want to move into a relationship with the Lord. They want to stay in the religious aspect of Christianity, which isn't Christianity at all. It's really aligning yourself with the devil. You can’t serve two masters, and if you're not in a relationship with the Lord, you could still be doing Christian things and doing all the right things like tithing or attending church, even preaching a sermon or whatever and yet, have no reality of Jesus in your life. We see many many people get stuck in religion and their own version of Christianity. They get stuck in the version of Christianity of many of today's evangelical churches. It's really sad. It really is.
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Brooks: I know someone's going to have to go through counseling to really receive the full impact of what they need if they're finding themselves stuck in ministry, but also in sin. But I did think, maybe you could end by giving us a few of the key points that you try to emphasize during the time you're working with a pastor or a leader who's come to you for help.
Jordan: You know Brooks, it really is awesome when a pastor or a worship leader, someone who's been in ministry or has been a missionary really comes to the foot of the Cross in complete submission to the Father, surrendering his will to the Lordship of Christ and coming into saving faith. Because, when that happens, there is something beautiful. It's like a transaction takes place in in the heavenlies, where a man trades religion in for a relationship like I was talking about. And then, when we talk about the things of the Lord, and we talk about the future or just their life in Christ, it is amazing to see that they just want Jesus and it's just about Jesus. It becomes just about being in a relationship with Jesus. And many of these men that come in are married and have kids, and they begin to see the value and the need of what God's really calling them to. First, they're called to be the spiritual leader in their home. When they come into that relationship with Christ, many times that's where I focus a lot of my attention. Especially with those who are married or are even divorced and have kids. I really work and focus on Ephesians 5:25-31: serving their wife and loving their wife and leading their wife, preparing her to be the pure and spotless bride of Christ. And then ministry, that just kind of sits on the back burner. You know, a pastor or worship leader should not go directly back into ministry. So, my focus is always on the marriage. If their single, then we focus on being a dispenser of God's mercy to their family and to those whose lives they've devastated, into really sowing seeds of faith and love back into those they've hurt. So, it's definitely not directing them back to ministry. It's leading them into a relationship with the Lord. If they're married, definitely into being the priest of their home.
